Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[cem_devecioglu]

to alter the coolant flow path for V6.. like seperate water flow channels..
 
if possible what must be done..

[cem_devecioglu]

please consider machine shops labour cost here is relatively cheap..
 
and cars expensive

[dbug]

Why?  Whats the problem cem?

[cem_devecioglu]

Why?  Whats the problem cem?

if I can find a way to alter the flow , there may be a plan for future

[VXL V6]

Why?  Whats the problem cem?

if I can find a way to alter the flow , there may be a plan for future

Does that involve an item marked 'Garrett'?

[cem_devecioglu]

like this one
 
"drill from the outside in to the water jackets and rig up a hard tube feed in to the jackets to produce equal water flow all around the engine, also a mate said could you put a second pump in but after the block towards the radiator so i draws the water through the block a bit quicker. "
 
or like this
"...isn't it poss to make a tird hole in the middle of the block,and let the water come in the block two ways?(from cil 6-4 and from cil 1to 3)so you actually in the end have two water feeds,each cooling three cilinders...just a wild idea.... "

[cem_devecioglu]

Why?  Whats the problem cem?

if I can find a way to alter the flow , there may be a plan for future

Does that involve an item marked 'Garrett'?

probably , but there are other easier alternatives

[cem_devecioglu]

anyone have that flow schema ? (picture removed by owner so I cant see )
 
"As you can see from this pic, the GM V6 is an open deck block.

i.e. the Cylinders are a triple liner, set into a water bath.

the water just gets shoved in one side, and out the other.

There's no channels for you to intercept the flow"

[Andy H]

It would be good to see that flow schema 

I have had a 2.5 V6 in pieces in front of me and the flow path wasn't obvious

I don't imagine the block is the main problem. The things that struck me were:
- The water pump seems quite small
- The coolant bridge must be very restrictive (but I don't know if that matters)
- I couldn't see where the flow through the oil cooler comes from or goes to.

I think the pump pulls coolant from the block through two passage (one from each bank). The coolant then appears to go up to the thermostat and probably goes through the heads and/or oil cooler to the rear. The coolant bridge lets water out at the rear of the heads that goes through the HBV (& cabin heater) and then tees into the stainless pipe from the bottom of the radiator just before it connects to the rear of the block.

The two areas most likely to be vulnerable to overheating would be the cylinder heads (distortion, gasket failure, valve damage, pre-ignition) and bearings due to over-heated oil.

I imagine the easiest way to deal with the high oil temperature would be to use fully synthetic oil.

One alternative might be to fit an external oil cooler and then re-route the coolant flow that currently goes through the oil cooler to improve the flow through the cylinder heads.

Another alternative might be to add an electric pump something like this Demon tweeks electric pump

[Kevin Wood]

My understanding....

Water pump draws water from bottom of radiator, through the transfer pipe to the rear of the block and through the oil cooler housing, out into both sides of the block at the front.

Water progresses back through the block around the cylinders, a proportion flowing up through the holes in the head gaskets into the head water jackets (holes in the head gaskets are graduated to give even flow). Some flows out through the bridge to the heater. The rest flows out of the heads at the rear, back to the front of the block to the cavity below the thermostat. If the thermostat is open, flow is out to the radiator then back into the oil cooler housing. If the thermostat is closed it opens a bypass bore returning the coolant to the intake of the water pump, assuring coolant flow during warmup to keep the heat even.

I have seen a mod. whereby the oil cooler plate is replaced by a plate with an extra coolant inlet. Apparently this improves cooling of the rear cylinders. I can't get my head around how this works based on the above understanding of coolant flow, but you really need to be looking at a stripped engine to be sure you've got it right. It's a clever setup.

But.. is there a problem that needs fixing in the first place? Most folklore of tuning V6s speaks of bottom ends not being strong enough, not overheating.

[cem_devecioglu]

It would be good to see that flow schema 

I have had a 2.5 V6 in pieces in front of me and the flow path wasn't obvious

I don't imagine the block is the main problem. The things that struck me were:
- The water pump seems quite small
- The coolant bridge must be very restrictive (but I don't know if that matters)
- I couldn't see where the flow through the oil cooler comes from or goes to.

I think the pump pulls coolant from the block through two passage (one from each bank). The coolant then appears to go up to the thermostat and probably goes through the heads and/or oil cooler to the rear. The coolant bridge lets water out at the rear of the heads that goes through the HBV (& cabin heater) and then tees into the stainless pipe from the bottom of the radiator just before it connects to the rear of the block.

The two areas most likely to be vulnerable to overheating would be the cylinder heads (distortion, gasket failure, valve damage, pre-ignition) and bearings due to over-heated oil.

I imagine the easiest way to deal with the high oil temperature would be to use fully synthetic oil.

One alternative might be to fit an external oil cooler and then re-route the coolant flow that currently goes through the oil cooler to improve the flow through the cylinder heads.

Another alternative might be to add an electric pump something like this Demon tweeks electric pump

 
 
oil cooler must be removed , because it disturbs the coolant flow (although oil will need longer to heat up)..
 
low temp thermostat required but not too low otherwise sparks will be fouled quickly imo..
 
one mechanic said changingthe pump working ratio and propellers easy.. also electric pump can be replaced with a bigger one..
 
also after a bit research I saw that steel gaskets can be prepared (97 not steel as far as I know)
 
I also think that coolant flow can be redesigned  .. 
 
steel pistons-rods can be prepared (although costly) and bottom end from diesels probably..

[cem_devecioglu]

My understanding....

Water pump draws water from bottom of radiator, through the transfer pipe to the rear of the block and through the oil cooler housing, out into both sides of the block at the front.

Water progresses back through the block around the cylinders, a proportion flowing up through the holes in the head gaskets into the head water jackets (holes in the head gaskets are graduated to give even flow). Some flows out through the bridge to the heater. The rest flows out of the heads at the rear, back to the front of the block to the cavity below the thermostat. If the thermostat is open, flow is out to the radiator then back into the oil cooler housing. If the thermostat is closed it opens a bypass bore returning the coolant to the intake of the water pump, assuring coolant flow during warmup to keep the heat even.

I have seen a mod. whereby the oil cooler plate is replaced by a plate with an extra coolant inlet. Apparently this improves cooling of the rear cylinders. I can't get my head around how this works based on the above understanding of coolant flow, but you really need to be looking at a stripped engine to be sure you've got it right. It's a clever setup.

But.. is there a problem that needs fixing in the first place? Most folklore of tuning V6s speaks of bottom ends not being strong enough, not overheating.

bottom end is also a problem but pistons 5 and 6 melting is really a primary concern imo..

[Kevin Wood]

However sub-optimal the cooling setup appears to be, you can be sure that it has been carefully optimised during design to give even cooling of the engine. Change one component and you have disturbed that balance and you have to start again. If trial and error is your only tool, it could be an expensive game.

Electric pumps are all very well, but they have nothing like the power available to them as the engine driven pump. They'll flow more coolant when the revs are low (and heat generated is also low) but don't underestimate how much coolant the standard pump will shift at high revs.

Also, changing the pump drive ratio can cause issues. There is probably a fine balance between enough flow at idle speed, and avoiding cavitation at high revs.

If there is a real issue with cooling the rear cylinders a bit of very localised attention to the flow in that area would be best, IMHO, but you run the risk of creating a hot spot elsewhere, IMHO.

[2woody]

long post alert....

ok, so the 54 degree V6 usually expires because of bottom end failure, caused undoubtedly by strainer blockage and/or over-temperature oil thinning out and reducing protection. The standard thermostat is far too high a temperature for efficient cooling ( chosen probably to help emissions instead ).

Having looked at this in some detail, removing the standard oil cooler would be a great idea, BUT this would only be a good idea if the coolant can be introduced to the pump without having to go through the block from back-to-front first. This would involve either introducing the coolant through an oil cooler blanking plate or inserting a seperate tube through the block from back to front and then making sure both that it doesn't leak and is insulated from coolant. In the standard car, the "cold" coolant from the radiator outlet goes through the transfer pipe ( above the exhause manifold ) and thropugh the cylinder block ( hot ) and around the oil cooler ( hot ), so by the time its at the pump may already be at 90 degrees C.

Next, the thermostat must be exchanged for another one operating at a much cooler temperature. Land Rover Discovery-II Td5 would be my choice as its an external unit. The bypass hole could be blocked, as the main bypass is through the heater ( as long as the HBV is removed, too ). Pipework is up to you.

In my opinion, the actual routing through the block from pump to outlet needs no improvement.

[2woody]

looks like we said the same thing there about the block routing and the pump. I certainly wouldn't advise changing either. Swindon didn't for their 300 HP endurance-race engine