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[omega3000]

TINA was crap when it was first said and it's crap now. Don't believe that austerity for the poor is the answer.  The answer is a modest redistribution of wealth.

We've run out of rich people, as we've been doing that for too long.

So the next step is to "encourage" those who can work to do so, and the way to do that is to cut the benefits of those who refuse for reasons that aren't really valid. And put a cap on the maximum amount of benefits a household had claim.

Totally agree... I think some folks don't actually know or understand the actual meaning of the words "benefit", "support", "allowance" etc .. and confuse them with the term "right"

But that is down to political history I'm afraid.  When the mass employment industries were "reduced" and the government was perceived to have taken jobs away from the populous, the natural reaction of those ex-workers in the industrial areas of Britain left in the lurch was, "I'll now just take what I can in benefits and live on that if no one is prepared to give us jobs anymore". That culture still persists to this day as successive governments have failed to help the young and not so young to gain worthwhile, full time, employment. The feeling I'm sure is "They (the politicians) are only in it for themselves and what they can make, so we will take what we can as the poor of society!"

Until there is a fundamental shift in UK politics and the politicians that "represent" us there will be conflict between those that have and those that don't! 

........and whilst we are on the subject of benefits..............where is Farage and UKIP on this? There has been silence from what I suspect is nothing but a one trick party who cannot apply themselves to actual policies and comment on situations that are close to home, and have not entered the fray on what is a crucial subject for hundreds of thousands.  All they can comment about is the EU, and that is not what we need.  I find that very disappointing.

Totally agree with that , the politicians dont represent the people anymore 

[omega3000]

i worked 6=7 days a week exept holidays  i never claimed anything exept child benefit which was put in a bank acc for the kids when they grew up  in 20008 xmas i came home from work had my tea the next thing i know was 3 days later waking up in hospital i havent been able to work scince i dont like claiming benefits but i have no choice we usded all our savings up in the 1st 6 months paying tne mortgage ect we then were able to claim benefits we lost our house to the mortguage rescue sceme they paid the mortguage off and claimed tha house the one we still live in they paid 1/2 what the house was worth that was what the mortguage was we lost everthing we had worked for in 25 yrs of marrige but it kept a roof over our heads i am not a scrounger i have no coice  i wish i could go back to work again  then i woulnt be a scrounger anymore you dont know how depresing this is when youve allways provided for your family then you cant i dont like been labled a bone idol git as one of the local councilars likes to call me but hes a dickhead anyway i spend 3 days aweek on dyalisis i cant walk no faether than the lenth of my front roon i cant evan dress my self evan whan ive been to the loo ive no nerves from my neck down but im in herendous pain from the nerves dying off mind you been numb dose have its advantages if you get my drift  they gave me 6 months to live in 2009 so in hanging inthere and there maybe a chance of a transplant if i make Christmas so i now have somthing to aim for  aswell as my grandaughter poppy and that bloody fox if it comes back
 sorry for moaning

Exactly , the feeling is that everyone on benefits is a scrounger or at least labeled as one , putting you in the same group as those that are bone idle and have never worked or intend to . There are people that need help with their disabilities that wont get the help as the money pot has been drained by the bone ide ones with no disabilities 

[ozzycat]

i worked 6=7 days a week exept holidays  i never claimed anything exept child benefit which was put in a bank acc for the kids when they grew up  in 20008 xmas i came home from work had my tea the next thing i know was 3 days later waking up in hospital i havent been able to work scince i dont like claiming benefits but i have no choice we usded all our savings up in the 1st 6 months paying tne mortgage ect we then were able to claim benefits we lost our house to the mortguage rescue sceme they paid the mortguage off and claimed tha house the one we still live in they paid 1/2 what the house was worth that was what the mortguage was we lost everthing we had worked for in 25 yrs of marrige but it kept a roof over our heads i am not a scrounger i have no coice  i wish i could go back to work again  then i woulnt be a scrounger anymore you dont know how depresing this is when youve allways provided for your family then you cant i dont like been labled a bone idol git as one of the local councilars likes to call me but hes a dickhead anyway i spend 3 days aweek on dyalisis i cant walk no faether than the lenth of my front roon i cant evan dress my self evan whan ive been to the loo ive no nerves from my neck down but im in herendous pain from the nerves dying off mind you been numb dose have its advantages if you get my drift  they gave me 6 months to live in 2009 so in hanging inthere and there maybe a chance of a transplant if i make Christmas so i now have somthing to aim for  aswell as my grandaughter poppy and that bloody fox if it comes back
 sorry for moaning

Exactly , the feeling is that everyone on benefits is a scrounger or at least labeled as one , putting you in the same group as those that are bone idle and have never worked or intend to . There are people that need help with their disabilities that wont get the help as the money pot has been drained by the bone ide ones with no disabilities 

[Lizzie_Zoom]

i worked 6=7 days a week exept holidays  i never claimed anything exept child benefit which was put in a bank acc for the kids when they grew up  in 20008 xmas i came home from work had my tea the next thing i know was 3 days later waking up in hospital i havent been able to work scince i dont like claiming benefits but i have no choice we usded all our savings up in the 1st 6 months paying tne mortgage ect we then were able to claim benefits we lost our house to the mortguage rescue sceme they paid the mortguage off and claimed tha house the one we still live in they paid 1/2 what the house was worth that was what the mortguage was we lost everthing we had worked for in 25 yrs of marrige but it kept a roof over our heads i am not a scrounger i have no coice  i wish i could go back to work again  then i woulnt be a scrounger anymore you dont know how depresing this is when youve allways provided for your family then you cant i dont like been labled a bone idol git as one of the local councilars likes to call me but hes a dickhead anyway i spend 3 days aweek on dyalisis i cant walk no faether than the lenth of my front roon i cant evan dress my self evan whan ive been to the loo ive no nerves from my neck down but im in herendous pain from the nerves dying off mind you been numb dose have its advantages if you get my drift  they gave me 6 months to live in 2009 so in hanging inthere and there maybe a chance of a transplant if i make Christmas so i now have somthing to aim for  aswell as my grandaughter poppy and that bloody fox if it comes back
 sorry for moaning

Exactly , the feeling is that everyone on benefits is a scrounger or at least labeled as one , putting you in the same group as those that are bone idle and have never worked or intend to . There are people that need help with their disabilities that wont get the help as the money pot has been drained by the bone ide ones with no disabilities 

What is happening EMD, and linked to my previous thread about "our" politicians, is that the Government are at the moment carrying out a traditional British political, governmental objective of "Divide and Rule".

The Coalition has successfully now set one section of our society against the other, as can indeed been seen in this particular thread that I have been watching with interest but without earlier comment. Whenever the current government of the day has faced a possible mass resistance to their rule, even a risk of revolution, they pick a policy on a subject that is guaranteed to split the possible "Rebel Ranks".  On this occasion it is the issue of State Welfare Benefits which a large proportion of the population support, but the government knows an even greater majority want to be reformed when the financial climate is against it as of now. It is very clever politics, and in the distant past has stopped revolution in Britain since 1789.

However, bungling Dave has this time misjudged and mismanaged the situation, using "private enterprise" to carryout the reform at great expense - profit to them - with staggering inefficiency and bad decision making. The rush to even get the genuine sick back to work, as witnessed by some unfortunate members on here that I really feel for, is creating great injustice, much heartache to individuals, and even severe risk to physical, along with, mental health, with even fresh and real poverty created.

In the final assessment it will be proved that it will have cost many more millions of pounds to "implement" the ridiculous changes being adopted than ever saved from the welfare budget, although I am certain the Coalition will cover their tracks and assign the costs of ATOL, RBLI, and other private services under a different budget heading.

As stated before, British governments have successfully out maneuvered revolutionary movements in Britain over the last two hundred and twenty four years, but with the national anger growing, and severe frustration being caused to the masses with no creditable Labour Party true Socialist Policy to turn to, that run of good political management may well be coming to an end.

[Andy B]

....

Exactly , the feeling is that everyone on benefits is a scrounger or at least labelled as one ,

I don't think that anyone has said that.

putting you in the same group as those that are bone idle and have never worked or intend to .  .....

But we all know someone from that group. The grown up kids of friends of ours are a good example. The daughter is 26 & has 4 girls (2 different fathers) 1st arrived as she just turned 16yr old. She's never worked, nor has her boyfriend.  The son is 24 early on in his 'working life' had about a dozen jobs that all lasted a week or two .... he could never get there on time or at all. He then discovered that a 'bad back' would allow him to not work at all & has never done since. Neither him or his wife have ever worked since they've been together.

[Marks DTM Calib]

....

Exactly , the feeling is that everyone on benefits is a scrounger or at least labelled as one ,

I don't think that anyone has said that.

Agreed, no mention of that.

The key is that benefits can be very generous and there are many who are career benefit leaches and it has to stop.

[Andy B]

...

The key is that benefits can be very generous and there are many who are career benefit leaches and it has to stop.

Exactly!

[albitz]

The people who are leeching of the system should be the ones who feel stigmatised and are ostrisiced within their communities,but those days unfortunately seem to have gone,and a lot of people seem to have a "dont blame them" attitude to it.
Every pound they take which they arent really entitled to is a pound that coud go to someone who genuinely deserves it.
Personally,once they are proved beyond reasonable doubt to be on the scrounge,I would starve the bastids into earning their keep.

[cleggy]

....

Exactly , the feeling is that everyone on benefits is a scrounger or at least labelled as one ,

I don't think that anyone has said that.

Agreed, no mention of that.

The key is that benefits can be very generous and there are many who are career benefit leaches and it has to stop.

Exactly! like the Womb for Benefits in our Close, 5 kids, three non contributing fathers, living the life of riley. She gets top of the range electrical goods and furninture delivered etc, rent of £600 pm plust £1500 Council Tax paid. You can bet your life when the youngest gets to 3 she'll pop out another little illegimate afro-caribean. The rest of the houses are pensioners and it makes us bloody sick that we have to skimp and save and we've all paid into this crap system, and her father is a social worker to boot so he probably fills out all the claim forms for her.  

[Entwood]

The people who are leeching of the system should be the ones who feel stigmatised and are ostrisiced within their communities,but those days unfortunately seem to have gone,and a lot of people seem to have a "dont blame them" attitude to it.
Every pound they take which they arent really entitled to is a pound that coud go to someone who genuinely deserves it.
Personally,once they are proved beyond reasonable doubt to be on the scrounge,I would starve the bastids into earning their keep.

and that's part of the conundrum ...

Parents who scrounge/workshy/whatever ... remove "their" benefits .. and the children suffer.. so is it "right" that an innocent 2 year old is left cold and hungry because the parents are no good ?? How do you "starve the bastids" [sic] without harming the kids ??

Many solutions have been tried ... vouchers, heating keys, etc. etc. but none seem to work adequately.

We can all quote examples of how genuine folks appear to get caught and suffer, as well as those where apparently "claimants" are ripping us (the tax payer) off ... but solving the conundrum is not easy.

At least the present government are trying to do something, unlike the last lot who simply threw our money away in an attempt to "buy" the "benefit vote", and are still trying to do so.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

The people who are leeching of the system should be the ones who feel stigmatised and are ostrisiced within their communities,but those days unfortunately seem to have gone,and a lot of people seem to have a "dont blame them" attitude to it.
Every pound they take which they arent really entitled to is a pound that coud go to someone who genuinely deserves it.
Personally,once they are proved beyond reasonable doubt to be on the scrounge,I would starve the bastids into earning their keep.

.......but unfortunately that would mean that their kid's also starve to death. Is it their fault that their parents are lazy bastards?.


Mr Entwood has partially stolen my thunder.

[omega3000]

Its the politicians that have forced the opinion that everyone on benefits is a scrounger , not anyone on here  This opinion has enraged the people that genuinely need help , people that have been unfortunate in life and have to live off benefits as they have no other choice because they cant physically work anymore . Being labeled a scrounger when you have worked hard for a living before having to live off benefits is an insult 
Im not sure this was a vote winning tactic for the folks in work as it appears a lot of people working are claiming some sort of benefit to exist as well 

 

[albitz]

I completely agree that the last lot created a situation which was cynical to the point of being criminal.
As for the kids,its a very difficult situation I agree.Perhaps if the parents are completely breakless and irresponsible,it might be better to take the kids off them and try and place them with couples who would raise them in a responsible manner and give them a chance in life ?
I can remember my Dad being on the dole for a while when I was a kid.He was ashamed of it,he would park in a different street to the dole office and then have a quick glance to check no-one was watching and then nip in through the door as quick as he could.Im not saying that was right,but we have gone much too far in the opposite direction now,where its almost something to be proud of for some people.
No perfect solution,I agree.I also have a certain amount of respect for IDS,as he has spent years studying the problem and trying to come up with sensible solutions,and is imo a thoughtful and decent man.
The "industry" which has grown up around keeping the welfare state as it is,or growing,has gone into hyperdrive this week,and beating them back down under the rocks they crawled out from is going to be a big job.

[Kevin Wood]

...
As for the kids,its a very difficult situation I agree.Perhaps if the parents are completely breakless and irresponsible,it might be better to take the kids off them and try and place them with couples who would raise them in a responsible manner and give them a chance in life ?...

..and, for the rest, workhouses with very comfortable subsidised creches attached seems to be the only answer.

.. or a requirement to spend the day out actively seeking work, again, with subsidised childcare to ensure this isn't to the detriment of their welfare.

Something needs to break the cycle. If you have the option of being with your kids all day, everyday, receiving more money than you could possibly earn, where's the incentive to do anything else? There needs to be an unpleasant side to life as a career claimant. Even if caring for the kids is at great cost to the taxpayer, if it gets word onto the street playground that this isn't a life of riley, then it'll turn out to be a sound investment, IMHO.

[Andy B]

.....
If you have the option of being with your kids all day, everyday, receiving more money than you could possibly earn, where's the incentive to do anything else?  ....

and that's how the Mike Philpotts of the world with 17 kids live! I consider myself to be well paid ..... I'm sure I should receive an invite to the Tax Man's Christmas Ball each year  but now way could I have afforded to bring that lot up!