Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[tigers_gonads]

Not my words (nicked from another forum) but just about sums it up for me 

When trying to integrate Muslim immigrants, Western countries find themselves pitted against the ghost of Mohammed. Mohammed’s supreme idea was that Islam demanded complete submission, transcending all tribal and political bonds. Our supreme idea is that political representation allows law to coexist with human freedom.
 Western nations expect Muslim immigrants to live by a code that separates civil and religious laws. The Western system assumes that Muslims will accept a division between the political and the religious, relegating religion to the mosque, while otherwise being Englishmen, Frenchmen and Americans. This concept however is innately foreign to the Muslim mind.
 The two supreme ideas of Islam and the West are naturally incompatible. Muslims view all political laws as corrupt and Allah’s law alone as transcendent. The West preserves political and civil rights by separating civil and religious laws into separate spheres. That is not a compromise that Muslims can truly understand or respect. For all intents and purposes, both sides are speaking different political languages that represent two radically different viewpoints.
 Each time we insist that there is no contradiction between being a Muslim and being a Frenchmen, a Brit or an America-- we make it that much worse. For Islam insists that there is a contradiction, even as we insist that there is none. Having given up our claim, the Western Muslim naturally moves to appease the cleric by resolving any contradictions between Islam and Western society; in Islam’s favour. And thus the moderate Muslim becomes a Jihadist enabler, if not a Jihadist himself.
 Given enough centuries of residence, the problem might resolve itself. If Islam did not insist on conquering infidels by the sword, but merely on separatism, the problem would be mainly a social one. If Muslims were not swiftly moving from minorities to majorities across Europe, there might still be time. Unfortunately there is very little time left before Europe becomes Eurabia, and much of the rest of the world will follow. The toxic combination of Saudi wealth, a booming birth rate, a decaying West and the industrialized secularism of the First World colliding with the fanatical determinism of the Muslim world, leaves only two ways for this clash of civilizations to end.

[Gaffers]

What utter tosh

[mantahatch]

Just put the popcorn in the microwave 

[tigers_gonads]

What utter tosh

Seriously, I hope your right

[slowboy]

I have a English copy of the Koran,picked it up in charity sale some years back.having spent some time in the m/east I read it to try and understand the ethos.  Most of it is cribbed from the bible.But tigers post is spot on that is the sad fact.

[05omegav6]

I have a English copy of the Koran,picked it up in charity sale some years back.having spent some time in the m/east I read it to try and understand the ethos.  Most of it is cribbed from the bible.But tigers post is spot on that is the sad fact.

Er not quite

The Koran, The Torah, and The Old Testament are all essentially the same text written in Arabic, Hebrew and latin respectively. The diffences stem from what happened next. Muslims and Jews both agree that someone quite significant came to earth from Heaven, whereas Christians believe that Jesus was the Son Of God. Where we all agree is that the actual/next visit will be from Allah/God themselves.

When this happens, we're all screwed. The issue of difference is simply a matter of perspective

[Kevin Wood]

Where we all agree is that the actual/next visit will be from Allah/God themselves.

When this happens, we're all screwed.

Excellent. Religion dealt with in 2 sentences.

Next problem?

[Andy B]

....
Next problem?

How about politics ...............       

[05omegav6]

A joke came to mind as I wrote that...

A man of faith lived in a house by a large river. On day the man awoke to find the river had burst its banks and he was trapped.

A chap with a large 4x4 drove through the three foot deep water, right upto the mans porch. "Jump in", he called, "we've room for one more."
"It's OK", replied the man, "for I am a man of faith, and God will save me, but thanks anyway."
"Fair dos" returned the rescuer, and off he drove.

A couple of hours later and the water was ten feet deep. A boat came along and stopped next an upstairs window.
The driver called out, "Jump in, we've room for one more."
"It's OK", replied the man, "for I am a man of faith, and God will save me, but thanks anyway."
"Fair dos" returned the rescuer, and off the boat went.

A couple more hours go by, and the water is now fifteen feet deep, and the man is sat on his roof. A helicopter appears, and hovers over the house and a man is lowered by its winch. "We've come to rescue you", the winch man shouts.
"It's OK", replied the man, "for I am a man of faith, and God will save me, but thanks anyway."
"Fair dos" returned the winch man, and off the helicopter flew.

That night the man drowned, and being a man of faith, he finds himself at Saint Peters door. Saint Peters comes out and says to the man "How did you end up here?"

The man replied, rather dissappointed about being dead,"I am a man of faith, and I thought that God would save me."
"Well",said Saint Peter, "we sent a man in a 4x4, followed by a man in a boat and finally a helicopter. Yet you sent them all away. So here you are. Dead."

I wonder if, given the current state of affairs with the unusual weather around the world, that the Second Coming might actually be on its way

[cem_devecioglu]

When trying to integrate Muslim immigrants, Western countries find themselves pitted against the ghost of Mohammed. Mohammed’s supreme idea was that Islam demanded complete submission, transcending all tribal and political bonds.

yep.. this sentence clearly sums up the real situation..  actually there can never be a real integration .. because according to koran , it says the last word and there can never be another law above it..  and all sayings like democracy, secularity are a load of b*llox in its eyes..
 
 

Our supreme idea is that political representation allows law to coexist with human freedom.
 Western nations 1. expect Muslim immigrants to live by a code that separates civil and religious laws. The Western system assumes that 2.Muslims will accept a division between the political and the religious, relegating religion to the mosque, while otherwise being Englishmen, Frenchmen and Americans. This 3.concept however is innately foreign to the Muslim mind.
 

In muslim communities, there are different kinds of people .. 1-2 some accept koran rules as it is, but apply some of it to daily life..  these are normal people trying to live their daily life without harming others..
 
3.and some accept all rules and try to apply all of it..  clearly the second part is dangerous is it can not coexist together with a civilized way of life and secularity..  I wont go in the details of koran here, as there are lots of explanations but I know what I read and understand..
 
 

 The two supreme ideas of Islam and the West are naturally incompatible.

correct..  before I tought about starting a thread about western and eastern way of thinking.. but later I gave up.. actually,
religion pushes eastern men to accept the rules and conditions as it is and stay where they are without any positive further movement..
without doubt this causes the eastern countries to fall behind the modern thought and any development..
 
however, at that point I must note that, western polticians abuse this situation as much as possible , try to start local wars between tribes, sometimes occupy their countries,  and sometimes use those groups in their countries as a vote potential..
so this a subject which is under constant abuse.. so hypocritical is the most innocent word that can be used for those politicans
 

 Muslims view all political laws as corrupt and Allah’s law alone as transcendent. The West preserves political and civil rights by separating civil and religious laws into separate spheres. That is not a compromise that Muslims can truly understand or respect. For all intents and purposes, both sides are speaking different political languages that represent two radically different viewpoints.

yes.. no ifs no buts..
 

 Each time we insist that there is no contradiction between being a Muslim and being a Frenchmen, a Brit or an America-- we make it that much worse. For Islam insists that there is a contradiction, even as we insist that there is none. Having given up our claim, the Western Muslim naturally moves to appease the cleric by resolving any contradictions between Islam and Western society; in Islam’s favour. And thus the moderate Muslim becomes a Jihadist enabler, if not a Jihadist himself.

partially true.. but not valid for all..
 

 Given enough centuries of residence, the problem might resolve itself.

as far as I can see those most of the residents of those communities always live a seperate life from the original locals ..
so this is unlikely to happen or need very very long time
 
 

If Islam did not insist on conquering infidels by the sword, but merely on separatism, the problem would be mainly a social one. If Muslims were not swiftly moving from minorities to majorities across Europe, there might still be time. Unfortunately there is very little time left before Europe becomes Eurabia

    fact which I repeated million times   because they increase in numbers faster than the europeans..
 
 

and much of the rest of the world will follow. 1.The toxic combination of Saudi wealth, a booming birth rate, a decaying West and the industrialized secularism of the First World colliding with the fanatical determinism of the Muslim world,2. leaves only two ways for this clash of civilizations to end.

1.agreed
 
2.cant agree.. west can choose another way.. requires time and money .. trying to educate/re-educate new generations  from scratch can change many things.. instead of supporting "friend" bloody dictators    but who cares
 

[cem_devecioglu]

I want to add a last point.. every human is precious and so their lifes.. if they are properly educated from the time they are born , they can be jewels very valuable for community.. but if they are ignored and let in the hands of ignorant to be educated sure you will harvest storm 
 
just to give an example; most of my citizens living in Germany even dont know few words of German language..

[jerry]

interesting thread. Ive read an English translation of the Koran, as well as the old and new testaments and I guess the problem is -just as you can with any book, on any subject-choose to emphasize certain points whilst ignoring others and basically interpret it as you see fit. A cursory look at the Muslim empires of history will show that many were actually very tolerant of other faiths but, as with all beliefs, whether religious or political, there are always extremists who will brook no opposition or dissention. Tigers post rings true-for some sections of the Islamic world- and it is naturally a very valid concern.I was listening to an Islamic leader on the radio only yesterday who was making similar points and who was critical of traditional Islamic groups within Western societies who, whilst preaching tolerance and the concept of living a "good" life and doing no harm to others, still made no effort to integrate the two cultures. For me though, such religious (or political) beliefs are just that-beliefs. It doesnt make them true, and I reserve my right to challenge them as I see fit. Im not deliberatly knocking anyones religion (whatever faith they may be) but few seem to have too much proven historical facts to back them up so they might as well be fairy stories as far as Im concerned  ; After all, you dont have to subscribe to a religion to try and live a moral and ethical life do you?  :-\Politics and religion eh. Interesting but may be safer to just talk about football or cars.....

[martin42]

if these people dont want to live by our laws,they know where the airports are