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[MR MISTER]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/health-24493422
I just can't see how you can make a 15 year old have a vaccination that they do not want it. Imagine
how you would feel if it was forced upon one of your children, regardless of the rights and wrongs of the issue. I don't like this kind of intervention at all, although I can see the arguement for the 'greater good'.

[05omegav6]

They are obviously ill informed

Refusing the jab on Vegan grounds is a non starter, as there was recently an issue (in Glasgow iirc) where muslim children refused the jab due to it containing gelatin derived from pork. That situation was resolved as there are readily available alternative vaccinations which contain no animal extracts...

It could be argued that, having been ordered twice previously, the mother is being deliberately difficult... suspect that the father is paying the legal bills

[Vamps]

Regardless of the rights and wrongs or what parents want, I can not see how a Judge can make such an order on a 15 year old, assuming she has 'Capacity' then she would be expected to give her opinion, if she says 'No' then this is her choice - even if her life was directly in danger..........

[MR MISTER]

Regardless of the rights and wrongs or what parents want, I can not see how a Judge can make such an order on a 15 year old, assuming she has 'Capacity' then she would be expected to give her opinion, if she says 'No' then this is her choice - even if her life was directly in danger..........

That's the implications I was talking about, Mike. It's beyond the judges remit, I would have thought. If it was my kid I'd go all the way to the European courts, by which time the kid would be 27 with kids of her own.

[Nickbat]

Steve, with respect you are overlooking the views of the children's father (who is behind the case). Imagine if you were separated/divorced form your wife. You would still have your children's best interests at heart and if you thought your ex was jeopardising their future health you would be furious and would want to do all you can to do the right thing by your offspring. The vast majority of professionals now believe that the MMR vaccine is safest way of preventing measles - which can have very serious consequences.
   
Pity the woman involved seems to have brainwashed them. I hope, for their sake, they never contract measles later in life. 

[Vamps]

Steve, with respect you are overlooking the views of the children's father (who is behind the case). Imagine if you were separated/divorced form your wife. You would still have your children's best interests at heart and if you thought your ex was jeopardising their future health you would be furious and would want to do all you can to do the right thing by your offspring. The vast majority of professionals now believe that the MMR vaccine is safest way of preventing measles - which can have very serious consequences.
   
Pity the woman involved seems to have brainwashed them. I hope, for their sake, they never contract measles later in life. 

For the 15 year old they do not count, she is a person in her own right, assuming capacity, as posted, the 11 year old may be less straight forward...........

[Nickbat]

Steve, with respect you are overlooking the views of the children's father (who is behind the case). Imagine if you were separated/divorced form your wife. You would still have your children's best interests at heart and if you thought your ex was jeopardising their future health you would be furious and would want to do all you can to do the right thing by your offspring. The vast majority of professionals now believe that the MMR vaccine is safest way of preventing measles - which can have very serious consequences.
   
Pity the woman involved seems to have brainwashed them. I hope, for their sake, they never contract measles later in life. 

For the 15 year old they do not count, she is a person in her own right, assuming capacity, as posted, the 11 year old may be less straight forward...........

I must disagree, Vamps. It's not as cut-and-dried as you allude:

There is no single law that defines the age of a child across the UK. The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, ratified by the UK government in 1991, states that a child “means every human being below the age of eighteen years unless, under the law applicable to the child, majority is attained earlier” (Article 1, Convention on the Rights of the Child, 1989).

In the UK, specific age limits are set out in relevant laws or government guidance.
...

...At what age should children's wishes be taken into account?

Most guidance relating to services for children (such as safeguarding and health care) stresses the importance of listening to the wishes of the child. However, the authorities have a duty to act in the best interests of the child, which may mean contradicting their wishes.

For instance, in England and Wales, section 53 of the Children Act 2004  amended section 17 and section 47 of the Children Act 1989 to give due consideration to the wishes and feelings of the child as far as reasonable, before determining what services to provide or action to take.


http://www.nspcc.org.uk/Inform/research/questions/definition_of_a_child_wda59396.html#law

"Parental right yields to the child’s right to make his own decisions when he reaches a sufficient understanding and intelligence to be capable of making up his own mind on the matter requiring decision."

Since the Gillick case, legal, health and social work professionals continue to debate the issues of a child’s rights to consent or refuse treatment, and how to balance children’s rights with the duty of child protection professionals to act in the best interests of the child. Further court rulings, new legislation and revised guidance continue to amend the legal position.

http://www.nspcc.org.uk/Inform/research/questions/gillick_wda61289.html#How_are_the_Fraser_Guidelines_applied?

[Vamps]

Steve, with respect you are overlooking the views of the children's father (who is behind the case). Imagine if you were separated/divorced form your wife. You would still have your children's best interests at heart and if you thought your ex was jeopardising their future health you would be furious and would want to do all you can to do the right thing by your offspring. The vast majority of professionals now believe that the MMR vaccine is safest way of preventing measles - which can have very serious consequences.
   
Pity the woman involved seems to have brainwashed them. I hope, for their sake, they never contract measles later in life. 

For the 15 year old they do not count, she is a person in her own right, assuming capacity, as posted, the 11 year old may be less straight forward...........

I must disagree, Vamps. It's not as cut-and-dried as you allude:

There is no single law that defines the age of a child across the UK. The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, ratified by the UK government in 1991, states that a child “means every human being below the age of eighteen years unless, under the law applicable to the child, majority is attained earlier” (Article 1, Convention on the Rights of the Child, 1989).

In the UK, specific age limits are set out in relevant laws or government guidance.
...

...At what age should children's wishes be taken into account?

Most guidance relating to services for children (such as safeguarding and health care) stresses the importance of listening to the wishes of the child. However, the authorities have a duty to act in the best interests of the child, which may mean contradicting their wishes.

For instance, in England and Wales, section 53 of the Children Act 2004  amended section 17 and section 47 of the Children Act 1989 to give due consideration to the wishes and feelings of the child as far as reasonable, before determining what services to provide or action to take.


http://www.nspcc.org.uk/Inform/research/questions/definition_of_a_child_wda59396.html#law

"Parental right yields to the child’s right to make his own decisions when he reaches a sufficient understanding and intelligence to be capable of making up his own mind on the matter requiring decision."

Since the Gillick case, legal, health and social work professionals continue to debate the issues of a child’s rights to consent or refuse treatment, and how to balance children’s rights with the duty of child protection professionals to act in the best interests of the child. Further court rulings, new legislation and revised guidance continue to amend the legal position.

http://www.nspcc.org.uk/Inform/research/questions/gillick_wda61289.html#How_are_the_Fraser_Guidelines_applied?

Of course not, on a saturday night on a car forum, and I don't know the 'facts' of the case, so I can only generalise; The Law becomes very complex and as you alluded to the wishes of the child must be considered.......

As Steve said, are you going to 'pin down' a 15 year old girl to have an MMR jab, against her will............ I don't know any Doctor who would do this........

And you certainly won't get a Psychiatrist to 'Section' her, no beds..........

[Nickbat]

Of course not, on a saturday night on a car forum, and I don't know the 'facts' of the case, so I can only generalise; The Law becomes very complex and as you alluded to the wishes of the child must be considered.......

As Steve said, are you going to 'pin down' a 15 year old girl to have an MMR jab, against her will............ I don't know any Doctor who would do this........

And you certainly won't get a Psychiatrist to 'Section' her, no beds..........

May I ask, did Miss Vamps have the MMR? If so, was that a joint decision between you and SWMBO?

Suppose that was not the case, however. If, hypothetically, you and SWMBO were now divorced/separated and Miss Vamps was still not innoculated due to SMBO's refusal, how would you feel?

Just asking...

[Vamps]

Of course not, on a saturday night on a car forum, and I don't know the 'facts' of the case, so I can only generalise; The Law becomes very complex and as you alluded to the wishes of the child must be considered.......

As Steve said, are you going to 'pin down' a 15 year old girl to have an MMR jab, against her will............ I don't know any Doctor who would do this........

And you certainly won't get a Psychiatrist to 'Section' her, no beds..........

May I ask, did Miss Vamps have the MMR? If so, was that a joint decision between you and SWMBO?

Suppose that was not the case, however. If, hypothetically, you and SWMBO were now divorced/separated and Miss Vamps was still not innoculated due to SMBO's refusal, how would you feel?

Just asking...

Yes, after brief discussion and consideration, as this was at the height of the scares, and we both said if one said no then so be it, but we both agreed, and we are not separated....

Nickbat, this is a 'Power' thing between parents, see this all the time and the child simply becomes a pawn, my other comments stand.......

[Nickbat]

Yes, after brief discussion and consideration, as this was at the height of the scares, and we both said if one said no then so be it, but we both agreed, and we are not separated....

Nickbat, this is a 'Power' thing between parents, see this all the time and the child simply becomes a pawn, my other comments stand.......

No, I know you're not, I was talking hypothetically. I don't believe this is de facto a "power thing". Measles is real and is potentially life-threatening. You cannot say suppose that this is just points-scoring on the part of the father. It may be, but equally it may be that the father has the child's best interests at heart. Neither you nor I know that. 

[Vamps]

Yes, after brief discussion and consideration, as this was at the height of the scares, and we both said if one said no then so be it, but we both agreed, and we are not separated....

Nickbat, this is a 'Power' thing between parents, see this all the time and the child simply becomes a pawn, my other comments stand.......

No, I know you're not, I was talking hypothetically. I don't believe this is a "power thing". Measles is real and is potentially life-threatening. You cannot say suppose that this is just points-scoring on the part of the father. It may be, but equally it may be that the father has the child's best interests at heart. Neither you nor I know that. 

You still miss the point, how are they going to give a reluctant 15 year old girl the injection? I am not arguing the benefits; my comments stand......

[05omegav6]

She should have been given the jab after the first court order... The situation now is posturing pure and simple

Should also be noted that her reluctance is on vegan grounds and not medical ones

[Vamps]

She should have been given the jab after the first court order... The situation now is posturing pure and simple

Should also be noted that her reluctance is on vegan grounds and not medical ones

How?..................

[05omegav6]

By making an appointment at her surgery like normal people as said her objection is totally unfounded, as per my first post on Saturday morning