Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Kevin Wood]

People have done that, and been laid off. It's come around, the boss has taken it personally, and removed the "problem".

My guess is he's working entirely to his bonus structure and intends to claim that bonus above all else. But then, who sets his bonus and targets..? 

You have to figure out what the boss' motivations are. I once worked for a boss who had been tasked with recruiting a new department. His bonus was basically multiplied by the number of "bums on seats" in the office to encourage him to work on recruitment. So, coming up to Christmas time, and I was helping with the recruitment, I interviewed a guy who was a total no-hoper, told the boss as much, only to find him employed on my team the following Monday morning.

What's good for the boss isn't necessarily any good for anyone else, thanks to the target culture which business has become recently.

[Kevin Wood]

See, if you show TB a way out, a direction...let's say a door just as an example.

He will, without fail, exit the room by ANY other route than the perfectly innocent, easy, obvious, one you offer him.

He will clime out the window, knock a hole in the ceiling, make another door, even dig a tunnel. Anything other than the the path you'd like.

Utterly bloody pointless talking to him.

On the other hand, we have just spent 6 pages discussing the semantics of the word "Development" before finally the real question comes to light.

[chrisgixer]

See, if you show TB a way out, a direction...let's say a door just as an example.

He will, without fail, exit the room by ANY other route than the perfectly innocent, easy, obvious, one you offer him.

He will clime out the window, knock a hole in the ceiling, make another door, even dig a tunnel. Anything other than the the path you'd like.

Utterly bloody pointless talking to him.

On the other hand, we have just spent 6 pages discussing the semantics of the word "Development" before finally the real question comes to light.

Yes I'm back working what I believe to be the underlying problem, and questioning my judgement on it in front of you lot. maybe that doesn't come across

I have no control/influence over targets and bonuses etc. What do I have an influence over? Not much, it seems, but as there's "supposed" to be an improved dialogue between shop floor and management on the way. Remains to be seen, but will need to be armed with something sensible.
Any two (apparently) opposing positions will have to find mutual ground somewhere in the middle in order to move on. Currently this means developing a feedback system in order to prevent repeat errors IMO. Currently, management have no inkling of the concept.
Why? Why not develop your process to at least an economically viable level. I'd suggest a change in attitude was about as cheap as its possible to get. In fact if successful its an easy way to increase productivity and profits. But who has the right attitude?
Our consultant, the staff, and the answers here on the most part show, it's not a staff issue its a system issue.

Ok it might be an arse backwards way of asking a question, but I didn't want the question to be a leading one.

[pscocoa]

See, if you show TB a way out, a direction...let's say a door just as an example.

He will, without fail, exit the room by ANY other route than the perfectly innocent, easy, obvious, one you offer him.

He will clime out the window, knock a hole in the ceiling, make another door, even dig a tunnel. Anything other than the the path you'd like.

Utterly bloody pointless talking to him.

On the other hand, we have just spent 6 pages discussing the semantics of the word "Development" before finally the real question comes to light.

Yes I'm back working what I believe to be the underlying problem, and questioning my judgement on it in front of you lot. maybe that doesn't come across

I have no control/influence over targets and bonuses etc. What do I have an influence over? Not much, it seems, but as there's "supposed" to be an improved dialogue between shop floor and management on the way. Remains to be seen, but will need to be armed with something sensible.
Any two (apparently) opposing positions will have to find mutual ground somewhere in the middle in order to move on. Currently this means developing a feedback system in order to prevent repeat errors IMO. Currently, management have no inkling of the concept.
Why? Why not develop your process to at least an economically viable level. I'd suggest a change in attitude was about as cheap as its possible to get. In fact if successful its an easy way to increase productivity and profits. But who has the right attitude?
Our consultant, the staff, and the answers here on the most part show, it's not a staff issue its a system issue.

Ok it might be an arse backwards way of asking a question, but I didn't want the question to be a leading one.

That is how we like 'em on here!!

[TheBoy]

I'm dreading adding anything else but heregoes...

Trying to see it from "their" perspective for a minute, do you feel, given what you've posted earlier, there is a sufficient market for this company in the UK (knowing nothing much about the industry, but making assumption that it can be done cheaper elsewhere, and sod the quality, no matter how shortsighted that may be)? Niche products/services, as your company provides, need to have better margins due to smaller market, or footfall in retail terms. Could this, in part, be an explanation of their seemingly different views?  .  For me, alarm bells are ringing somewhere. Are they looking more for an exit, rather than long term success, assuming the market can sustain success?



If its a larger company, or multinational (I believe it is?), I suspect there have been a few phases of basically initiatives to learn from mistakes. These initiatives usually have different names to the previous one to do the same thing.

Often, once you get more than a few hundred employees, the targets for these initiatives often take precedence over actually achieving whats best for the company, as middle/senior mgrs. set their bonuses on these targets, rather than customer driven, profit driven targets. Shame, as a lot of these initiatives are based on good ideas. Poorly implemented.


//TB runs and hides, as he still hasn't a FC what gixer was on about earlier. Right door, left door, trapdoor, who gives a

[Rods2]

Have you thought of writing a letter to the management on the problems and possible solutions signed by ALL of the people in your department? At the end of the day you are all in this together and if they relocate to a cheaper country for manufacturing, then all of you, including the management will be made redundant.

IME when mangement bring in external consultants it is because they are jobworths with no vision on how the business should be run.

Even if these ongoing problems are fixed, it still might be the right decision for the company to relocate the business where the UK has a high cost base when it comes to building / land costs, taxes, wages, regulation and energy. High energy costs are currently driving many energy intensive / low margin businesses offshore, so the current CO2 plus more is produced elsewhere in countries like the US and China etc.

[chrisgixer]

Have you thought of writing a letter to the management on the problems and possible solutions signed by ALL of the people in your department? At the end of the day you are all in this together and if they relocate to a cheaper country for manufacturing, then all of you, including the management will be made redundant.

IME when mangement bring in external consultants it is because they are jobworths with no vision on how the business should be run.

Even if these ongoing problems are fixed, it still might be the right decision for the company to relocate the business where the UK has a high cost base when it comes to building / land costs, taxes, wages, regulation and energy. High energy costs are currently driving many energy intensive / low margin businesses offshore, so the current CO2 plus more is produced elsewhere in countries like the US and China etc.

People have indeed written letters as mentioned. They have spoken to sales reps, who have spoken to area and site mangers, threatening to put work through other factories in the group.They where considered trouble makers when the European manager came down on them.

Re consultants, yes absolutely. There is not one single question he's asked, that hasn't been asked by the staff, and not one question he's asked that any other normal human with an ounce of common could and would ask. If the consultant can ask a sensible question, with zero experience of our particular business, then why can't the site manager?

IMO.... Because he doesn't have a basic development model in place.(no common sense) Why? No experience of our business.

Re closure, re moving the site, re cheap labour, re redundancy for all staff? Of course.

Only saving grace is, our customers are local. Ish. They need to be on site to pass approval. Not that we do that often enough either.

We need a cars iron production man who knows his stuff.


....actually. No. We've got 50 odd of those already.

[2woody]

advancement through trial and occasionally error

[Kevin Wood]

IME when mangement bring in external consultants it is because they are jobworths with no vision on how the business should be run.

.. or they have a difficult decision to make, but haven't got the balls, so they lead a consultant to the answer they want.

[chrisgixer]

IME when mangement bring in external consultants it is because they are jobworths with no vision on how the business should be run.

.. or they have a difficult decision to make, but haven't got the balls, so they lead a consultant to the answer they want.

Yes, seen that one. And made the worst of the two decisions.

[chrisgixer]

advancement through trial and occasionally error

Really simple isn't it.

[Rods2]

Have you thought of writing a letter to the management on the problems and possible solutions signed by ALL of the people in your department? At the end of the day you are all in this together and if they relocate to a cheaper country for manufacturing, then all of you, including the management will be made redundant.

IME when mangement bring in external consultants it is because they are jobworths with no vision on how the business should be run.

Even if these ongoing problems are fixed, it still might be the right decision for the company to relocate the business where the UK has a high cost base when it comes to building / land costs, taxes, wages, regulation and energy. High energy costs are currently driving many energy intensive / low margin businesses offshore, so the current CO2 plus more is produced elsewhere in countries like the US and China etc.

People have indeed written letters as mentioned. They have spoken to sales reps, who have spoken to area and site mangers, threatening to put work through other factories in the group.They where considered trouble makers when the European manager came down on them.

Re consultants, yes absolutely. There is not one single question he's asked, that hasn't been asked by the staff, and not one question he's asked that any other normal human with an ounce of common could and would ask. If the consultant can ask a sensible question, with zero experience of our particular business, then why can't the site manager?

IMO.... Because he doesn't have a basic development model in place.(no common sense) Why? No experience of our business.

Re closure, re moving the site, re cheap labour, re redundancy for all staff? Of course.

Only saving grace is, our customers are local. Ish. They need to be on site to pass approval. Not that we do that often enough either.

We need a cars iron production man who knows his stuff.


....actually. No. We've got 50 odd of those already.

Thats why I suggested signed by everybody, then they can't single people out. Personally, I would give them a chance to resolve the situation and then start moving up the management chain, again collectively, if that then involves collectively, approaching the MD at your International HQ then so be it. He will only know the bullsh*t that he is being fed by your management. You are obviously concerned that they are going to close, so what have you got to lose? If despite the letter writing you get no where and they close you, the letters written and ignored could then get very awkward for the management explaining to the press why they were ignored. Good public company image to keep customer buying the goods is very important for businesses these days. If you have no customers you have no business!

Good management at whatever level the buck stops at are looking for employees that care and teamwork as it makes the business better. When I used to employ over 30 people, I used to get pizzas in once a month for a staff meeting and have an open floor for suggestions, criticism etc., a lot of good constructive comments used to come out of it and the staff used to feel good seeing their suggestions implemented. It is a win, win situation

[chrisgixer]

I'm dreading adding anything else but heregoes...

Trying to see it from "their" perspective for a minute, do you feel, given what you've posted earlier, there is a sufficient market for this company in the UK (knowing nothing much about the industry, but making assumption that it can be done cheaper elsewhere, and sod the quality, no matter how shortsighted that may be)? Niche products/services, as your company provides, need to have better margins due to smaller market, or footfall in retail terms. Could this, in part, be an explanation of their seemingly different views?  .  For me, alarm bells are ringing somewhere. Are they looking more for an exit, rather than long term success, assuming the market can sustain success?



If its a larger company, or multinational (I believe it is?), I suspect there have been a few phases of basically initiatives to learn from mistakes. These initiatives usually have different names to the previous one to do the same thing.

Often, once you get more than a few hundred employees, the targets for these initiatives often take precedence over actually achieving whats best for the company, as middle/senior mgrs. set their bonuses on these targets, rather than customer driven, profit driven targets. Shame, as a lot of these initiatives are based on good ideas. Poorly implemented.


//TB runs and hides, as he still hasn't a FC what gixer was on about earlier. Right door, left door, trapdoor, who gives a

Like I mentioned earlier. The writing is on the wall, so to speak.

If we're not successful in "new markets" there's a very big concern we will not survive. We can not continue to make the number of basic simple mistakes, that we are, and continue on regardless. Often producing jobs 2 or 3 times over until it's correct, when the profit margin is barely a 5th over cost. Where as before profit was double cost. So we could afford to cock it up without loss. Arguably equally criminal, but there we are.

Staff are aware of exit strategies, to an extent. Showing great concern on the lease on the building, and looking at what's being done long term instead of what's said.

Moral is low. No surprise there. Although we have just come through one of the worst recessions in living memory. So it's served its purpose there, and must of been doing something right where others failed.

[cem_devecioglu]

So I would say. Step 1.Look for faults. Actively. Log them. Initiate testing even. Reproduce them separately, in order to be sure. Proritising probably. Starting to get vague now. This is where things fail IMO. The current fashion in management, you've probably heard, is "Be positive". Ok good, heres a load of faults we need to fix. Says I. No, says he. I'm being negative. He says.At this stage, is it ok to punch your boss squarely in the face?

a list of faults ..

[cem_devecioglu]

Apply it to this thread.

Kevs answer btw is not what I imagined. Why? Did I not explain it well enough. More than likely. Did he apply it to what he knows best. Quite possibly.

Probably got the point accross by now.

Might be ready for Mr Dtm now. If he can be arsed.

Could I not..