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Author Topic: Turbo charging the miggy...  (Read 10866 times)

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Webby the Bear

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Turbo charging the miggy...
« on: 10 November 2014, 16:26:57 »

Aye up guys,

A while ago I asked about turbos, their workings, considerations when TCing an N/A car etc.

There is a guy in the gallery who has done this to his 2.5 V6.

So. If i wanted to do this (humour me).....

1.) What calculations regarding size of turbo, boost pressure etxc. do i need to do to work this out? i suppose i could carbon copy the guy in the gallery but id rather understand it first.
2.) MarksDTM mentioned the biggest challenge would be cooling. Is that cooling of the turbo or the charged air going in to the inlets?
3.) What about breather system? presumably that cant live in the now pressurised inlet manifold?
4.) would i also simply drill a hole in the sump for my oil feed / return to the turbo?
5.) would i have to use exhaust gases from both manifolds or could i simply run a standard manifold on pass. side and my turbo manifold from drivers side?
6.) is there enough room for intercooler gubbins at the front? i presume so as its been done but would i have to make ''adaptions''
7.) finally is this something i could achive on my own?
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aaronjb

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Re: Turbo charging the miggy...
« Reply #1 on: 10 November 2014, 16:49:30 »

1.) What calculations regarding size of turbo, boost pressure etxc. do i need to do to work this out? i suppose i could carbon copy the guy in the gallery but id rather understand it first.

You'd get the compressor maps for various turbos and work out which one will be working efficiently at the boost pressure you want.. actually it's probably a lot more complicated than that when you take into account all the different things you can tweak on a turbo - compressor size, turbine size, blade cutback. But you want one that's working efficiently at your target pressure, you can work out turbine size by looking at something of similar capacity (so if you have one turbo per bank, 1.5L cars).

2.) MarksDTM mentioned the biggest challenge would be cooling. Is that cooling of the turbo or the charged air going in to the inlets?

Cooling of the coolant, the oil, the intake charge - all need thinking about. Cooling the turbo itself will pretty much take care of itself after that ;)

3.) What about breather system? presumably that cant live in the now pressurised inlet manifold?

Correct, and/or it needs check valves adding in appropriate places.

4.) would i also simply drill a hole in the sump for my oil feed / return to the turbo?

For the return, yes. Just a hole (and spigot) in the sump above the oil level. For the feed you need to tap into a pressurised oil feed somewhere; oil pressure sensor feed is a popular choice as long as it's post-filter.

5.) would i have to use exhaust gases from both manifolds or could i simply run a standard manifold on pass. side and my turbo manifold from drivers side?

Eh, the latter is a bodge (IMHO) and will lead to a very unbalanced engine.. you'd really want to either merge the manifolds and use one turbo or have one per bank.  Both can be done, subject to packaging (which is tight on the Omega!)

6.) is there enough room for intercooler gubbins at the front? i presume so as its been done but would i have to make ''adaptions''

Dump the aircon and you gain some space.. or the windscreen washer tank and gain a ton of space (relocate it to a smaller tank)

7.) finally is this something i could achive on my own?

No disrespect but right now, probably not. Given time, yes, definitely. You'll need to do a lot of reading on turbocharging, learn to weld pretty decently etc etc.


Oh and to simplify things you might be better off just looking at crank driven centrifugal superchargers (Rotrex) - they're half a turbo, essentially, with the turbine side replaced by a belt drive. Much easier to package.
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05omegav6

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Re: Turbo charging the miggy...
« Reply #2 on: 10 November 2014, 16:53:45 »

That's easy... remove the engine and fit one from a turbo charged car ::)

Just like the bloke in the gallery...

Granted, not as helpful as Aarons post :-[
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Webby the Bear

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Re: Turbo charging the miggy...
« Reply #3 on: 10 November 2014, 16:57:09 »

Thanks for the detailed input Aaron.

Certainly lots to think about.

i noticed in gen help you mentioned a jap engine could take up to 700bhp before having to upgrade / change bearings, rods etc.

any idea what a 2.5 could hack without having to alter any bottom end gubbins?
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Kevin Wood

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Re: Turbo charging the miggy...
« Reply #4 on: 10 November 2014, 16:58:32 »

2.) MarksDTM mentioned the biggest challenge would be cooling. Is that cooling of the turbo or the charged air going in to the inlets?

Cooling of the coolant, the oil, the intake charge - all need thinking about. Cooling the turbo itself will pretty much take care of itself after that ;)

I think there's an additional issue with the V6 that the rear cylinders get poor coolant flow so, where they've been tuned to extremes in the past, an additional coolant pipe has been plumbed in where the oil cooler sits, the oil cooler moved external and a blanking plate made up to cover the hole where it previously sat. Not sure on any further details but they are around somewhere.

I reckon the radiator is pretty generously sized, so that's probably all you'll need to do, in addition to a new oil cooler somewhere and an intercooler, of course.
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aaronjb

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Re: Turbo charging the miggy...
« Reply #5 on: 10 November 2014, 16:59:15 »

Thanks for the detailed input Aaron.

Certainly lots to think about.

i noticed in gen help you mentioned a jap engine could take up to 700bhp before having to upgrade / change bearings, rods etc.

any idea what a 2.5 could hack without having to alter any bottom end gubbins?

Not a clue on that one, I'm afraid.. I know the rumour mill here usually says they're pretty delicate, later 3.2 being sturdier with a forged crank.

Even so you're unlikely to see 3-4x power out of a stock bottom end on anything produced outside of Japan in the 1990s :)
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Re: Turbo charging the miggy...
« Reply #6 on: 10 November 2014, 17:00:51 »

any idea what a 2.5 could hack without having to alter any bottom end gubbins?

Folklore is that even the very mildly boosted engines made for the PSNI way back used to lunch their bottom ends. This may not be due fundamentally to the strength of the engine but lack of lubrication or oil cooling, though, but it's an idea of the sort of issues you might hit when even with a conversion that presumably had a fair budget ploughed into it.
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05omegav6

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Re: Turbo charging the miggy...
« Reply #7 on: 10 November 2014, 17:15:09 »

How closely related is the C20LET to the X/Z20/22 unit?

A cheap, early facelift 2.0 manual would be a good project base, rather than messing with Eeyore... that way, if it goes horribly wrong then you still have your nice car :y

Easiest way to get a bit more oomph into your nice car is to drop a 3.0 lump in :y
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Re: Turbo charging the miggy...
« Reply #8 on: 10 November 2014, 17:34:04 »

I'd start with a 3.2, based on its low CR and strong crank
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Re: Turbo charging the miggy...
« Reply #9 on: 10 November 2014, 17:55:49 »

On the 3.2 subject.

Is there any way of changing the Bore and or Stroke to gain say 800 or more cc? That would seem to be a more cost effective solution than turbo/supercharge or V8 as it would all fit and "look" standard.
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Keith ABS

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Re: Turbo charging the miggy...
« Reply #10 on: 10 November 2014, 18:04:03 »

  The current ABS chairman had a courtney turbod mig estate. It developed a knock which turned out to be the big end shells had turned. Omegatoy bought it from him. Dont know what happened to it after that
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Webby the Bear

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Re: Turbo charging the miggy...
« Reply #11 on: 10 November 2014, 18:04:51 »

How closely related is the C20LET to the X/Z20/22 unit?

A cheap, early facelift 2.0 manual would be a good project base, rather than messing with Eeyore... that way, if it goes horribly wrong then you still have your nice car :y

Easiest way to get a bit more oomph into your nice car is to drop a 3.0 lump in :y

I should have prefaced by saying I wouldn't touch Eeyore! I'd buy another one; funds permitting of course. That way I don't wreck my daily driver and the best Omega ever  ::) ;D and basically do what gixers doing with his V8.

As for dropping the 3.0l in.... already on it ;)

Thanks for all your input dudes.

Knowing the very basics of turbos..... would a small turbo not compliment the omega.... turbo for initial acceleration that is lacking cos of the weight of the beasts?

So I suppose the huge issue with this would be the making of the manifolds?
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henryd

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Re: Turbo charging the miggy...
« Reply #12 on: 10 November 2014, 18:12:11 »

How closely related is the C20LET to the X/Z20/22 unit?

A cheap, early facelift 2.0 manual would be a good project base, rather than messing with Eeyore... that way, if it goes horribly wrong then you still have your nice car :y

Easiest way to get a bit more oomph into your nice car is to drop a 3.0 lump in :y

I should have prefaced by saying I wouldn't touch Eeyore! I'd buy another one; funds permitting of course. That way I don't wreck my daily driver and the best Omega ever  ::) ;D and basically do what gixers doing with his V8.

As for dropping the 3.0l in.... already on it ;)

Thanks for all your input dudes.

Knowing the very basics of turbos..... would a small turbo not compliment the omega.... turbo for initial acceleration that is lacking cos of the weight of the beasts?

So I suppose the huge issue with this would be the making of the manifolds?

I think the biggest issue is the cost against the power gained, much easier and cheaper just to fit a bigger donkey or if turbo is a must fit an engine and management system from a turboed car.
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Webby the Bear

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Re: Turbo charging the miggy...
« Reply #13 on: 10 November 2014, 18:19:06 »

That's another thing...... ECU! When I saw a conversion on youtube there was a company called Haltech (Aus) who basically provided all new wiring, ecu etc.

ipresume youd have to rip all wiring out and do pretty much the same with bespoke ecu, wiring etc?
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Re: Turbo charging the miggy...
« Reply #14 on: 10 November 2014, 18:31:56 »

  The current ABS chairman had a courtney turbod mig estate. It developed a knock which turned out to be the big end shells had turned. Omegatoy bought it from him. Dont know what happened to it after that
I'd seen that one, and another Courtney turbo'd estate. Both had deep knocks. Coincidence? Doubtful ;)
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