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[Lazydocker]

Preliminary report is that the pilot started the loop at 200ft, which is 300ft below the minimum licensed height of 500ft for such aerobatics!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3222624/There-wrong-vintage-Hawker-Hunter-jet-involved-Shoreham-crash-according-safety-experts-seen-cockpit-footage.html

It's hard to believe such an experienced pilot would make a basic and fundamental mistake like that... I'm sure the report I saw (and not the Daily Fail crap) had his radar trace and showed him climbing after the low pass before commencing the loop

[Rods2]

All humans are fallible and make mistakes.

[Lazydocker]

All humans are fallible and make mistakes.

Indeed... Time will tell

[steve6367]

Preliminary report is that the pilot started the loop at 200ft, which is 300ft below the minimum licensed height of 500ft for such aerobatics!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3222624/There-wrong-vintage-Hawker-Hunter-jet-involved-Shoreham-crash-according-safety-experts-seen-cockpit-footage.html

It's hard to believe such an experienced pilot would make a basic and fundamental mistake like that... I'm sure the report I saw (and not the Daily Fail crap) had his radar trace and showed him climbing after the low pass before commencing the loop

Without the spin:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/aaib-special-bulletin-on-hawker-hunter-t7-g-bxfi

Pass at 100ft, 200ft for start of loop.

[Lazydocker]

Preliminary report is that the pilot started the loop at 200ft, which is 300ft below the minimum licensed height of 500ft for such aerobatics!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3222624/There-wrong-vintage-Hawker-Hunter-jet-involved-Shoreham-crash-according-safety-experts-seen-cockpit-footage.html

It's hard to believe such an experienced pilot would make a basic and fundamental mistake like that... I'm sure the report I saw (and not the Daily Fail crap) had his radar trace and showed him climbing after the low pass before commencing the loop

Without the spin:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/aaib-special-bulletin-on-hawker-hunter-t7-g-bxfi

Pass at 100ft, 200ft for start of loop.

Although it does also state that the data is all from radar updating at 6s intervals. But it doesn't look great Should he survive the pilot will either have more evidence or have to live with the consequences of his error, if that is the case

[aaronjb]

Before or after the public have hung, drawn and quartered him? (Even before the report came out I've seen people suggest he should be tried for murder..)

[henryd]

Before or after the public have hung, drawn and quartered him? (Even before the report came out I've seen people suggest he should be tried for murder..)

Anyone would think he did it on purpose,poor bugger probably wishes he died in the crash.

[Rods2]

I agree, I remember reading many years a go about an RAF pilot, instructor and ex-Red Arrows pilot who said he was careless during a flying display by not double checking his height before starting a loop and realizing on the downward pullout he was in trouble with his altitude but managed to get away with it just, he said that taught him a valuable lesson on complacency, which he always passed on when teaching aerobatics.

Pilots want to go home to their families and friends after a day at the office.

[Gaffers]

Has anyone thought that he might have mixed up meters and feet?  I am pretty sure the Hawker works in old money and most of the planes he works on with BA are likely to be in meters.

[Lazydocker]

Has anyone thought that he might have mixed up meters and feet?  I am pretty sure the Hawker works in old money and most of the planes he works on with BA are likely to be in meters.

I thought (but it could be because everything I've flown is old) that altimeter was always in feet

Must admit, I wondered if there was an issue with the setting of it but can't see there being a big enough change in pressure to cause that much inaccuracy. Couldn't even be a mix up of AGL vs ASL because the ground isn't that much higher.

Time will tell but it's certainly a sad situation. I hope that they get to the bottom of it

[Lazydocker]

Before or after the public have hung, drawn and quartered him? (Even before the report came out I've seen people suggest he should be tried for murder..)

So anyone who kills someone in a car crash should also be tried for murder then?

Some people......

[Gaffers]

Before or after the public have hung, drawn and quartered him? (Even before the report came out I've seen people suggest he should be tried for murder..)

So anyone who kills someone in a car crash should also be tried for murder then?

Some people......

All cyclists who crash in to cars and kill the occupants should be.  Gits they are

[Kevin Wood]

Has anyone thought that he might have mixed up meters and feet?  I am pretty sure the Hawker works in old money and most of the planes he works on with BA are likely to be in meters.

All aviation in the UK and internationally works in "old money" although I've flown gliders from Europe with metric instruments, which are confusing. If he flew any types with metric instruments he would have been well used to converting to and from feet as that's what air traffic control work in. A Hunter wouldn't have been fitted with metric instruments.

The Fail have jumped to the conclusion that the pilot was at error, but I can't see anything of that in the AAIB bulletin.

The only altitude reference is from secondary radar, which has an altitude resolution of 100 feet, isn't referenced to QNH of the day and the report mentions the 6 second update rate. A lot can happen in 6 seconds, certainly, a gentle climb from 200 to 500 feet before entering the loop wouldn't have been apparent from that data. Secondary radar is designed to identify aircraft at cruising flight levels. Who knows how accurate it is that close to the ground?

I don't actually believe the entry height of the manoeuvre is relevant. Whilst an aircraft with low wing loading and low or no thrust such as a glider essentially conserves energy through a loop, exiting at close to the entry height and speed if flown properly, an aircraft with a high wing loading such as the Hunter would be very "lossy", relying on thrust throughout the manoeuvre.

The interesting thing would be to know his height and speed at the top of the loop. Here he would decide if he could "pull through" the vertical axis and recover level flight safely above the ground, and he would have the opportunity to roll back level and abort the figure if not.

[omega2018]

reading between the lines in the report, i picked up:

"He held a valid Display Authorisation (DA),  ..to display the Hawker Hunter to a minimum height of .. 500 ft during
Standard3 category aerobatic manoeuvres. "

"[he] then commenced a descending left turn to 200 ft amsl, approaching the display line at an angle
of about 45º. The aircraft then pitched up into a manoeuvre [the loop]"

amsl is above mean sea level, the 500 feet would be above ground level.  not that that makes a lot difference - he started his manoeuvre at 200 feet above sea level and he was licensed to start it at 500 feet above ground level.   he was out by about 400 feet assuming the crash site was 100 ft above sea level.

it will be interesting to see how the pilot is treated compared to the Glasgow bin lorry driver who killed only 6.

[Kevin Wood]

Do note the massive limitations on the altitude measurements that they have relied on!

How accurate do you think a device that measures altitude in 100ft steps is, when that close to the ground?

A Hunter can climb quite a long way between 6 second updates too!

Also, a manoeuvre only becomes "aerobatic" when the pilot exceeds 30 degrees of pitch or 60 degrees of bank.

Had he started the manoeuvre 400 feet higher, whilst he might have missed the ground, it would still have been a very close call, and taken him below his display floor.

Whilst the media are baying for blood it's not as simple as starting the loop too low.