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[Kevin Wood]

They would mind I am sure. Does that justify shooting the plane down, shooting the pilots dead while on parachute and attacking a rescue helicopter? (The later 2 by the Rebels supported by Turkey) I'm not convinced yet, but more detail will surface I'm sure.

Of course not. Then again, we're not just talking about a war zone, here. 

[tigers_gonads]

Having now seen the map and the flight path of the Su24's, this is quite simply imho a message to the Russians.

Putin now knows that if he pissed off the Turks, they will hit back and screw the consequences.

Putin is a bully and a piggin very clever one at that.
I've said before on other threads that he has the west by the balls and that stands imo.
In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if he knew that sooner or later, this would happen 
Now it has happened, you can be sure that he will turn it around to his advantage in some way 

How about using it to destabilise NATO ?

Maybe pop over the border and help himself to a mile or two of Turkish land ?
Turkey spits its dummy out and invokes article 5 and waits for the rest of NATO to run to his assistance.
The yanks say no thanks and run away.
Everybody else sit around the table and ask the UN to write a strongly worded letter of protest 

You can bet your life that after what those vile scum did to the aircrew of that Su24, vlad WILL find a way to hurt the Turks, by hook or crook     

[biggriffin]

Oooooh. Rods2 to this discussion, its getting anti-Putin.

[Gaffers]

Looks like the next few days will determine if this ends up as a minor disagreement at the bar, or if we go to a full-on rumble in the jungle.

I wonder how long before us 'formers' are remobilised?

[Sir Tigger KC]

Putin has been testing NATO borders for some time now.  Subs off of Stockholm and Scotland, regular bomber flights skirting UK and Norwegian air spaces and various incidents in the Baltics including the kidnapping of a Estonian official at the border with Russia.  So maybe this was a NATO plot to send Putin a message.    I bet that this kind of scenario has been extensively discussed at the highest levels for some time now. 

It'll really kick off if Turkey and Russia get into a tit for tat spat and Turkey closes the Bosphorus to Russian shipping!  Putin and Turkeys President Erdogan are probably similar characters who like to be seen as macho hard men who don't back down. 

[Broomies Mate]

It is alleged that one of the Rusky airmen (a flight engineer) has been rescued from Syria and is now back in Russia.

[LC0112G]

Putin has been testing NATO borders for some time now.  Subs off of Stockholm and Scotland, regular bomber flights skirting UK and Norwegian air spaces and various incidents in the Baltics including the kidnapping of a Estonian official at the border with Russia.  So maybe this was a NATO plot to send Putin a message.    I bet that this kind of scenario has been extensively discussed at the highest levels for some time now. 

It'll really kick off if Turkey and Russia get into a tit for tat spat and Turkey closes the Bosphorus to Russian shipping!  Putin and Turkeys President Erdogan are probably similar characters who like to be seen as macho hard men who don't back down. 

The Bosphorus is a free international waterway covered by The Montreaux Convention, and Turkey preventing its use by anyone - military or civil - would be illegal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_waters
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreux_Convention_Regarding_the_Regime_of_the_Straits

IMHO What's likely to happen now is that Russia will publically say that they didn't enter Turkish airspace, but privately accept there may have been a "navigational error". However, they'll insist the shoot-down was unwaranted. Turkey will say publically that they were simply protecting their soverign airspace after repeated infringments and warnings, but privately accept they acted a harshly on this occasion.

Moving forward, Russia are likely to give the Turkish border a bit more respect whilst they pummel the sh1t out of the Turkish backed rebels in that area in revenge for the killing of their pilot. Turkey will monitor it all from their side of the border, but providing Russian aircraft don't encroach into their airspace they won't do anything. If encroachment does happen, then providing it's not a regular/repeated occurrence, Turkey is likely to illuminate the targets with fire control radars to put the willies up the Russian pilots. Then lots of diplomatic whinging about it.

[STEMO]

Thanks, Rods 

[Sir Tigger KC]

Putin has been testing NATO borders for some time now.  Subs off of Stockholm and Scotland, regular bomber flights skirting UK and Norwegian air spaces and various incidents in the Baltics including the kidnapping of a Estonian official at the border with Russia.  So maybe this was a NATO plot to send Putin a message.    I bet that this kind of scenario has been extensively discussed at the highest levels for some time now. 

It'll really kick off if Turkey and Russia get into a tit for tat spat and Turkey closes the Bosphorus to Russian shipping!  Putin and Turkeys President Erdogan are probably similar characters who like to be seen as macho hard men who don't back down. 

The Bosphorus is a free international waterway covered by The Montreaux Convention, and Turkey preventing its use by anyone - military or civil - would be illegal

Exactly why it would all kick off big time if Turkey imposed a blockade and who knows, they might!  Erdogan is probably a bit of a loose cannon.... 

It's a huge piece of speculation on my part though.... 

[STEMO]

Putin has been testing NATO borders for some time now.  Subs off of Stockholm and Scotland, regular bomber flights skirting UK and Norwegian air spaces and various incidents in the Baltics including the kidnapping of a Estonian official at the border with Russia.  So maybe this was a NATO plot to send Putin a message.    I bet that this kind of scenario has been extensively discussed at the highest levels for some time now. 

It'll really kick off if Turkey and Russia get into a tit for tat spat and Turkey closes the Bosphorus to Russian shipping!  Putin and Turkeys President Erdogan are probably similar characters who like to be seen as macho hard men who don't back down. 

The Bosphorus is a free international waterway covered by The Montreaux Convention, and Turkey preventing its use by anyone - military or civil - would be illegal

Exactly why it would all kick off big time if Turkey imposed a blockade and who knows, they might!  Erdogan is probably a bit of a loose cannon.... 

It's a huge piece of speculation on my part though.... 

[tigers_gonads]

Putin has been testing NATO borders for some time now.  Subs off of Stockholm and Scotland, regular bomber flights skirting UK and Norwegian air spaces and various incidents in the Baltics including the kidnapping of a Estonian official at the border with Russia.  So maybe this was a NATO plot to send Putin a message.    I bet that this kind of scenario has been extensively discussed at the highest levels for some time now. 

It'll really kick off if Turkey and Russia get into a tit for tat spat and Turkey closes the Bosphorus to Russian shipping!  Putin and Turkeys President Erdogan are probably similar characters who like to be seen as macho hard men who don't back down. 

The Bosphorus is a free international waterway covered by The Montreaux Convention, and Turkey preventing its use by anyone - military or civil - would be illegal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_waters
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreux_Convention_Regarding_the_Regime_of_the_Straits

IMHO What's likely to happen now is that Russia will publically say that they didn't enter Turkish airspace, but privately accept there may have been a "navigational error". However, they'll insist the shoot-down was unwaranted. Turkey will say publically that they were simply protecting their soverign airspace after repeated infringments and warnings, but privately accept they acted a harshly on this occasion.

Moving forward, Russia are likely to give the Turkish border a bit more respect whilst they pummel the sh1t out of the Turkish backed rebels in that area in revenge for the killing of their pilot. Turkey will monitor it all from their side of the border, but providing Russian aircraft don't encroach into their airspace they won't do anything. If encroachment does happen, then providing it's not a regular/repeated occurrence, Turkey is likely to illuminate the targets with fire control radars to put the willies up the Russian pilots. Then lots of diplomatic whinging about it.

So is shooting down one of your allies over foreign airspace 
Even if that country has been pissing you off for a while by taking the piss over your airspace 

The Turks have been at war with the Kurds for donkeys years.
The world knows that the Kurds deserve and are fully entitled to a large chunk of Turkey but we all look the other way because we need Turkey as a access point into the south of Russia (if needed god forbid  ) and as a buffer between the mad mullah's of the middle east.

Erdogan will do what the hell he wants to keep his area of influence under control and himself in power 

[STEMO]

Illegal? Against the law? Does this really come into consideration when you're trying to kill foreign nationals? Or increase the size of your country....just a little bit?
Did mad, bad Vlad think it might be slighly illegal to annex Crimea or invade Ukraine? Nah.....

[tigers_gonads]

Illegal? Against the law? Does this really come into consideration when you're trying to kill foreign nationals? Or increase the size of your country....just a little bit?
Did mad, bad Vlad think it might be slighly illegal to annex Crimea or invade Ukraine? Nah.....

Mad bad Vlad and the Mad Mullah of Turkey democratically elected leader of Turkey don't give a shit full stop as long as they get there own way 

Anyway, Crimea didn't belong to Ukraine anyway 
Stalin just loaned them it for a while back in the 50's iirc  then called the loan back in with a little bit of interest 



Right, i've got the afternoon of so i'm off fishing 

[steve6367]

Illegal? Against the law? Does this really come into consideration when you're trying to kill foreign nationals? Or increase the size of your country....just a little bit?
Did mad, bad Vlad think it might be slighly illegal to annex Crimea or invade Ukraine? Nah.....

Crimea was his before anyway so not worth losing sleep over 

[STEMO]

Illegal? Against the law? Does this really come into consideration when you're trying to kill foreign nationals? Or increase the size of your country....just a little bit?
Did mad, bad Vlad think it might be slighly illegal to annex Crimea or invade Ukraine? Nah.....

Crimea was his before anyway so not worth losing sleep over 

Yeah. I think that may have been mentioned 7 hours ago in the previous post.