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Author Topic: Interesting take on Electric cars  (Read 3588 times)

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Shackeng

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Interesting take on Electric cars
« on: 25 February 2016, 15:44:24 »

 Do electric cars really help the environment? President Obama thinks so. So does Leonardo DiCaprio. And many others.

The argument goes like this:

Regular cars run on gasoline, a fossil fuel that pumps CO2 straight out of the tailpipe and into the atmosphere. Electric cars run on electricity. They don’t burn any gasoline at all. No gas; no CO2. In fact, electric cars are often advertised as creating “zero emissions.” But do they really? Let’s take a closer look.

First, there’s the energy needed to produce the car. More than a third of the lifetime carbon-dioxide emissions from an electric car comes from the energy used make the car itself, especially the battery. The mining of lithium, for instance, is not a green activity. When an electric car rolls off the production line, it’s already been responsible for more than 25,000 pounds of carbon-dioxide emission. The amount for making a conventional car: just 16,000 pounds.

But that’s not the end of the CO2 emissions. Because while it’s true that electric cars don’t run on gasoline, they do run on electricity, which, in the U.S. is often produced by another fossil fuel -- coal. As green venture capitalist Vinod Khosla likes to point out, "Electric cars are coal-powered cars."

The most popular electric car, the Nissan Leaf, over a 90,000-mile lifetime will emit 31 metric tons of CO2, based on emissions from its production, its electricity consumption at average U.S. fuel mix and its ultimate scrapping.

A comparable Mercedes CDI A160 over a similar lifetime will emit just 3 tons more across its production, diesel consumption and ultimate scrapping. The results are similar for a top-line Tesla, the king of electric cars. It emits about 44 tons, which is only 5 tons less than a similar Audi A7 Quattro.

So throughout the full life of an electric car, it will emit just three to five tons less CO2.  In Europe, on its European Trading System, it currently costs $7 to cut one ton of CO2. So the entire climate benefit of an electric car is about $35. Yet the U.S. federal government essentially provides electric car buyers with a subsidy of up to $7,500.

Paying $7,500 for something you could get for $35 is a very poor deal.  And that doesn’t include the billions more in federal and state grants, loans and tax write-offs that go directly to battery and electric-car makers

The other main benefit from electric cars is supposed to be lower pollution. But remember Vinod Khosla’s observation "Electric cars are coal-powered cars."

Yes, it might be powered by coal, proponents will say, but unlike the regular car, coal plant emissions are far away from the city centers where most people live and where damage from air pollution is greatest. However, new research in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences found that while gasoline cars pollute closer to home, coal-fired power actually pollutes more -- a lot more.

How much more?

Well, the researchers estimate that if the U.S. has 10% more gasoline cars in 2020, 870 more people will die each year from the additional air pollution. If the U.S. has 10% more electric vehicles powered on the average U.S. electricity mix, 1,617 more people will die every year from the extra pollution. Twice as many.

But of course electricity from renewables like solar and wind creates energy for electric cars without CO2. Won’t the perceived rapid ramp-up of these renewables make future electric cars much cleaner? Unfortunately, this is mostly wishful thinking. Today, the U.S. gets 14% of its electric power from renewables. In 25 years, Obama’s U.S. Energy Information Administration estimates that number will have gone up just 3 percentage points to 17%. Meanwhile, those fossil fuels that generate 65% of U.S. electricity today will still generate about 64% of it in 2040.

While electric-car owners may cruise around feeling virtuous, the reality is that the electric car cuts almost no CO2, costs taxpayers a fortune, and, surprisingly, generates more air pollution than traditional gasoline cars.

I’m Bjørn Lomborg, president of the Copenhagen Consensus Center.
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Nick W

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Re: Interesting take on Electric cars
« Reply #1 on: 25 February 2016, 16:04:23 »

So you've read The Sceptical Environmentalist too.
Ironically, my copy seems to have been recycled.
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STEMO

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Re: Interesting take on Electric cars
« Reply #2 on: 25 February 2016, 16:20:10 »

I think the big idea is that, as electric cars become more prevalent, those figures will alter drastically. I'm pretty sure it's all good for the planet and there are no commercial decisions involved at all.














 :D ;D ;D
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biggriffin

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Re: Interesting take on Electric cars
« Reply #3 on: 25 February 2016, 16:23:01 »

Global warming is a myth.

Dinosaurs didn't have fridges or drive cars yet climate change killed them ;)

Or if I was rods I could blame some Russian bloke ;D
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STEMO

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Re: Interesting take on Electric cars
« Reply #4 on: 25 February 2016, 16:26:14 »

Global warming is a myth.

Dinosaurs didn't have fridges or drive cars yet climate change killed them ;)

Or if I was rods I could blame some Russian bloke ;D
Ivanasaurus.
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05omegav6

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Re: Interesting take on Electric cars
« Reply #5 on: 25 February 2016, 16:28:13 »

Don't forget, in the US, most electricity is generated by either hydro electric plants or nuclear ones... ignoring the toxic waste of the latter, both are near as dammit zero emission ::)
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STEMO

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Re: Interesting take on Electric cars
« Reply #6 on: 25 February 2016, 16:29:57 »

Don't forget, in the US, most electricity is generated by either hydro electric plants or nuclear ones... ignoring the toxic waste of the latter, both are near as dammit zero emission ::)
Errrr...no.

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=427&t=3
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omega2018

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Re: Interesting take on Electric cars
« Reply #7 on: 25 February 2016, 16:30:26 »

it's cows not cars:

Are cows the cause of global warming?
A cow does on overage release between 70 and 120 kg of Methane per year. Methane is a greenhouse gas like carbon dioxide (CO2). But the negative effect on the climate of Methane is 23 times higher than the effect of CO2. Therefore the release of about 100 kg Methane per year for each cow is equivalent to about 2'300 kg CO2 per year.

Let's compare this value of 2'300 kg CO2: The same amount of carbon dioxide (CO2) is generated by burning 1'000 liters of petrol. With a car using 8 liters of petrol per 100 km, you could drive 12'500 km per year (7'800 miles per year).

World-wide, there are about 1.5 billion cows and bulls. All ruminants (animals which regurgitates food and re-chews it) on the world emit about two billion metric tons of CO2-equivalents per year. In addition, clearing of tropical forests and rain forests to get more grazing land and farm land is responsible for an extra 2.8 billion metric tons of CO2 emission per year!

According to the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations (FAO) agriculture is responsible for 18% of the total release of greenhouse gases world-wide (this is more than the whole transportation sector). Cattle-breeding is taking a major factor for these greenhouse gas emissions according to FAO. Says Henning Steinfeld, Chief of FAO's Livestock Information and Policy Branch and senior author of the report: "Livestock are one of the most significant contributors to today's most serious environmental problems. Urgent action is required to remedy the situation."

Livestock now use 30 percent of the earth's entire land surface, mostly permanent pasture but also including 33 percent of the global arable land used to producing feed for livestock, the report notes. As forests are cleared to create new pastures, it is a major driver of deforestation, especially in Latin America where, for example, some 70 percent of former forests in the Amazon have been turned over to grazing. http://timeforchange.org/are-cows-cause-of-global-warming-meat-methane-CO2
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05omegav6

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Re: Interesting take on Electric cars
« Reply #8 on: 25 February 2016, 16:31:49 »

Don't forget, in the US, most electricity is generated by either hydro electric plants or nuclear ones... ignoring the toxic waste of the latter, both are near as dammit zero emission ::)
Errrr...no.

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=427&t=3
Trust you to let facts ruin a perfectly good debate... and in an election year too ::)

 ;D
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STEMO

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Re: Interesting take on Electric cars
« Reply #9 on: 25 February 2016, 16:34:33 »

Don't forget, in the US, most electricity is generated by either hydro electric plants or nuclear ones... ignoring the toxic waste of the latter, both are near as dammit zero emission ::)
Errrr...no.

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=427&t=3
Trust you to let facts ruin a perfectly good debate... and in an election year too ::)

 ;D
See my post on Cameron spouting facts without thinking someone might actually check.  :P
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Bigron

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Re: Interesting take on Electric cars
« Reply #10 on: 25 February 2016, 16:58:23 »

All this assumes that CO2 is the enemy and vehicles, etc., are to blame.
Virtually all INDEPENDENT scientific opinion says that it is not - water vapour is.
However, letting government propaganda have its way for the moment and assume that there is some kind of link between CO2 and global warming, let us mbe aware of the major source of CO2 - PEOPLE!
We generate 98% of global CO2 just by breathing out. What a good thing it is that we have this symbiotic agreement with plants and trees: they take our CO2 and swap it for oxygen.
Very kind of them......

Ron.
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Kevin Wood

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Re: Interesting take on Electric cars
« Reply #11 on: 25 February 2016, 17:22:32 »

Of course.. You forgot the additional emissions from your Leaf when some wag hacks it and leaves the heater on and the windows open all night. ::)

But.. if the problem is cows, then I'm going to try to solve it. Everyone need to do their bit. I'm making myself available for cow disposal duties. Medium rare with a little bearnaise, please. :P
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STEMO

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Re: Interesting take on Electric cars
« Reply #12 on: 25 February 2016, 17:29:29 »

Of course.. You forgot the additional emissions from your Leaf when some wag hacks it and leaves the heater on and the windows open all night. ::)

But.. if the problem is cows, then I'm going to try to solve it. Everyone need to do their bit. I'm making myself available for cow disposal duties. Medium rare with a little bearnaise, please. :P
You're just going to increase your methane output.
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Rods2

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Re: Interesting take on Electric cars
« Reply #13 on: 25 February 2016, 18:40:35 »

Do electric cars really help the environment? President Obama thinks so. So does Leonardo DiCaprio. And many others.

You're not suggesting that we take the subsidised, self righteous, feel good factor from the tree huggers, while they make things worse, are you? :P
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Kevin Wood

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Re: Interesting take on Electric cars
« Reply #14 on: 25 February 2016, 18:44:07 »

Of course.. You forgot the additional emissions from your Leaf when some wag hacks it and leaves the heater on and the windows open all night. ::)

But.. if the problem is cows, then I'm going to try to solve it. Everyone need to do their bit. I'm making myself available for cow disposal duties. Medium rare with a little bearnaise, please. :P
You're just going to increase your methane output.

Hmm.Not so far from LPG then?

I've got a cunning plan. :D
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