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[jimbobmccoy]

Sat on the m40 and gone all of half a mile in the last three hours-a Lorry decided it needed a lay down across all three lanes. This happened this morning yet it's estimated all will be back to normal at 2215 tonight. Once initial emergency response is done, why does it take so long to clear.

I get it takes a while to get to the scene, but surely a big crane Lorry from the other direction can arrive, lift the thing, and get it to the side of the road in less than 10 hours-add some time to clean and make carriageway safe and its job done.

Is this overly simplifying things, is it health and safety, or does it really just take that long?

[Andy H]

If there as a likelihood that there has been / will be a fatality then the police treat it as a crime scene.

The frustrating thing is that there seems to be no 'plan B' - and no acknowledgement that the hundreds of people stuck in the queue are effectively being 'detained without charge'.

[Nick W]

As always, it depends.
If there is a fatality, then it is investigated thoroughly. This takes ages, even if the investigators aren't already busy and arrive quickly.


It can take less than an hour to right a truck with a wrecker and tow it away. Conversely, if it's badly damaged, or the load has shifted then many hours and several pieces of very expensive equipment to do the job.


We did a curtainsider loaded with sacks of plastic pellets for injection moulding, that  rolled off a roundabout(the agency driver was drunk ) a mile away from our yard. It took 10 people with shovels and our forklift 8 hours to make righting the truck possible. 45 minutes later, the haulier towed the trailer away, and our driver towed the tractor to their compound. The road from Thamesport was closed for the entire time. The bill was about £25k.

[jimbobmccoy]

My understanding was they had cameras now that they 'scanned' the whole scene with and then some software put the sequence of events together to speed the process up-surely while that's being done it would give time for the equipment needed to clear the carriageway to arrive, so as soon as they'd finished with the scene it could be cleared.

My musings are of course just to pass the time, inconvenience is no comparison to serious injury or loss of life-it just seems to be 'accepted' it'll take forever so no huge rush is made (to an outside perspective)

Also, why are central reservations not made with removable/openable sections every few miles to allow a contra flow to be set up.

Or in this case, where the junction before has been closed, why can the cars on the motorway not be managed off the motorway up the on ramp and then diverted?

I guess it all feels a bit too disjointed to be seen as the most efficient management of the scenario to me.


Flying cars, would of course, solve all this 

[jimbobmccoy]

As always, it depends.
If there is a fatality, then it is investigated thoroughly. This takes ages, even if the investigators aren't already busy and arrive quickly.


It can take less than an hour to right a truck with a wrecker and tow it away. Conversely, if it's badly damaged, or the load has shifted then many hours and several pieces of very expensive equipment to do the job.


We did a curtainsider loaded with sacks of plastic pellets for injection moulding, that  rolled off a roundabout(the agency driver was drunk ) a mile away from our yard. It took 10 people with shovels and our forklift 8 hours to make righting the truck possible. 45 minutes later, the haulier towed the trailer away, and our driver towed the tractor to their compound. The road from Thamesport was closed for the entire time. The bill was about £25k.

See, in this case the Lorry is covering all three lanes, can the cab not be decoupled and dragged away, then the trailer be nudged a bit to free up a lane while clear up is done?

8 hours is a huge amount of time to be stuck-bring back the canals for haulage I say 

Who picks up the bill for that-is it the insurers, a central fund, local council?

[Lazydocker]

Firstly, as said, if there are potentially "life changing" or fatal injuries, it is a crime scene.

Secondly, and more importantly, righting a lorry that has overturned isn't a 5 minute job. Depends what type, what cargo, what weight, what direction, what space, blah, blah. Remember that the lorry weight is probably 44T (but we will call it 40T for ease). The breaking strain of the winch cables is likely to be 10T maximum. There's a lot of maths involved there to start with!

It's frustrating but can't be rushed... If you get it wrong trying to turn a car back the right way up its just likely to be inconvenient... If you get it wrong with an artic then it is seriously dangerous! A snapping winch cable will cut through any flesh and bone in it's path, as well as trees, aluminium and thin steel!!

[Nick W]

My understanding was they had cameras now that they 'scanned' the whole scene with and then some software put the sequence of events together to speed the process up-surely while that's being done it would give time for the equipment needed to clear the carriageway to arrive, so as soon as they'd finished with the scene it could be cleared.

My musings are of course just to pass the time, inconvenience is no comparison to serious injury or loss of life-it just seems to be 'accepted' it'll take forever so no huge rush is made (to an outside perspective)

Also, why are central reservations not made with removable/openable sections every few miles to allow a contra flow to be set up.

Or in this case, where the junction before has been closed, why can the cars on the motorway not be managed off the motorway up the on ramp and then diverted?

I guess it all feels a bit too disjointed to be seen as the most efficient management of the scenario to me.


Flying cars, would of course, solve all this 

A few photos won't cut it in court. Consequently clearing the mess doesn't start until the investigators are finished. The best that happens is that the people who will be doing that work will have been allowed enough access to plan what they are going to do and get the equipment on scene.


Contraflows, or turning the trafficjam around takes a huge amount of effort, time and personnel.  You have to be utterly certain that the traffic can only move in one direction(especially if it's the wrong one) before allowing it to  move. There are very few Police or even  HATOs in any given area that can actually do this, and they will all be busy at the scene.

[Nick W]

Watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDJaPJ1uWvo


This one of the 'better' things that can go wrong

[05omegav6]

If you have Netflix, the watch Highway Thru Hell... ok, the title is a bit over dramatic, but it shows how easily or badly heavy recovery can go... it also gives an idea of working conditions that would make the HSE apoplectic 

In order of priority...
Remove casualties.
Open one lane.
Clear dead vehicle without getting squished, maimed or otherwise deaded.
Go home.

A taster... https://youtu.be/RyyINDKeRJ0

[Nick W]

As always, it depends.
If there is a fatality, then it is investigated thoroughly. This takes ages, even if the investigators aren't already busy and arrive quickly.


It can take less than an hour to right a truck with a wrecker and tow it away. Conversely, if it's badly damaged, or the load has shifted then many hours and several pieces of very expensive equipment to do the job.


We did a curtainsider loaded with sacks of plastic pellets for injection moulding, that  rolled off a roundabout(the agency driver was drunk ) a mile away from our yard. It took 10 people with shovels and our forklift 8 hours to make righting the truck possible. 45 minutes later, the haulier towed the trailer away, and our driver towed the tractor to their compound. The road from Thamesport was closed for the entire time. The bill was about £25k.

See, in this case the Lorry is covering all three lanes, can the cab not be decoupled and dragged away, then the trailer be nudged a bit to free up a lane while clear up is done?

8 hours is a huge amount of time to be stuck-bring back the canals for haulage I say 

Who picks up the bill for that-is it the insurers, a central fund, local council?

Go and look at an artic coupling. Now put it on its side. Even assuming that it isn't bent and will come apart, how much money would you want to do what you're suggesting? How much would your widow suggest?


Even with a couple of million quid's worth of equipment this is a highly skilled job, with no shortcuts.

[jimbobmccoy]

Firstly, as said, if there are potentially "life changing" or fatal injuries, it is a crime scene.

Secondly, and more importantly, righting a lorry that has overturned isn't a 5 minute job. Depends what type, what cargo, what weight, what direction, what space, blah, blah. Remember that the lorry weight is probably 44T (but we will call it 40T for ease). The breaking strain of the winch cables is likely to be 10T maximum. There's a lot of maths involved there to start with!

It's frustrating but can't be rushed... If you get it wrong trying to turn a car back the right way up its just likely to be inconvenient... If you get it wrong with an artic then it is seriously dangerous! A snapping winch cable will cut through any flesh and bone in it's path, as well as trees, aluminium and thin steel!!

I was thinking more of just dragging it clear and righting it when the one was clear, or using a big Lorry crane or two. Basically an attempt to clear it as if it were an f1circuit team doing the clearing.

(All very tongue in cheek btw)

[STEMO]

I prefer the judge dredd type solution. If you're stupid enough to be involved in a crash, then you'd better move quick, cause we're coming through with the plough.

[Steve B]

Watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDJaPJ1uWvo


This one of the 'better' things that can go wrong

Made me laugh did that one 

[Nick W]

There is no just when winching. Not if you want to go home afterwards.
It's been a while since Ive had to do the calculations but just one damaged wheel adds 25% to the required pull. This can be bad for a 2 ton car that's in one piece.


A quick google brought up this: [size=78%]http://www.pangaea-expeditions.com/resources/winchworksheet/index.html[/size] which should give you some idea of what is involved in easy jobs!

[jimbobmccoy]

Hmmm, so I need to start on my design of a better trailer coupling as the first step to achieving my dream of ultra efficient clearance.
In seriousness though, I did figure that things were done the way they are for a reason, and when thinking on the allocation of resources that are needed as described, the only way to achieve any quicker clearing would involve roving teams of complete removal specialists-the cost of this would be impractical-though not too far removed from Jeremy corbyns idea of running trident with no missiles just to keep jobs.

It's interesting to find out just what is involved in something that seems straightforward, and I agree that in terms of priority someone sat in a car just doesn't compare to the safety of people or dealing with loss of life or injury.
I think it comes down, in part, to an infrastructure being used in a way it never was thought of, with the sharing of private vehicles and great big arctics, and sheer volume, causing such problems.