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[LC0112G]

This is just 2 + 2 = 5

#1:

It's easier for these countries to issue local citizenship documentation than to deport... and because those initial points of entry have limited work and no welfare budget, the newly endowed arrivals move on... open borders and unrestricted movement of migrant workers within the EU means these people can legitimately come here and start claiming.

#2

And you only have to look at the numbers of people in the Calais area waiting for a chance to get here, having bypassed/ignored France and Germany on the way (both of which have welfare systems at least as supportive as ours) to see that this is a real issue, and one that can only be tackled by being able to regulate our borders more effectively. The only reason the effects are currently not being fully felt across the country is a natural barrier commonly known as The English Channel.

If #1 were true #2 wouldn't occur. All those people at Calais, and others entering via the Med/Turkey would just go straight to the country that is doling out EU citizenship willy-nilly, get their EU passport, and then cross without hindrance into the UK. Yet we know #2 does occur; ergo #1 doesn't.

So exactly how is Brexiting going to do anything to stop #2?

[Doctor Gollum]

The people in '#2' will eventually be dispersed one way or the other. If we remain in, then we, along with a handful of other EU countries that have the means to support them, will be forced to accept them.

Once this happens they will fall into category '#1' by default and the majority will then come here anyway, a) because they will then be able to unrestricted, and b) because here is where they always wanted to be, hence heading straight for the Calais area.

By exiting we will be able to manage this influx on our terms.

Immigration control isn't the be all and end all for voting out, but it is a consideration. Economically, the greater EU cannot sustain continued mass migration from the Middle East/Africa... wages and conditions have been depressed for long enough as it is as a direct result of a wave of cheap labour flooding across western Europe over the last 10-12 years.

Leaving isn't an easy option, far from it, but it is the only long-term choice.

[Rods2]

Trouble with that questionnaire is there's a lot of 'agree slightly' and the like. You'd have to be pretty hard-line to go with all the 'totally disagree/agree'.

I did with a few questions.....and got 63% out.....which is probably be the way I vote...

Even if it means a few years of 'recession' , if the outcome is a better UK, then maybe it will be worth it .......

Very unlikely, beyond remain project fear as we  will go EEA/EFTA route. BOP (balance of payments) is positive with ROW (rest of world) and growing fast but negative to the extent of -3% of GDP with EU where Germany / France and their EU Hegemony (think CAF) are determined it will prevail at our expense which is why Leave must prevail for you, your children and grand children for a better future. Most trade agreements have a continuity clause, which means nothing changes unless we want it to.

Fundamental problems with the Euro and its black holes are killing European growth and wealth. Since 1988 EU has lost % of world trade at 2x USA, ask your MP/MEP why 50%+ unemployed in some southern European countries is acceptable with a massive 25% depression and drop in GDP. This IMO is an EU commission disaster or maybe in their viw they are acting like a Marquis de Sade EU poster boy? The classic economic solution is to default and devalue (aka Iceland) but this is not allowed for the political EU Euro project. Much better to have destitute Greeks than a single Euro be threatened for an EU commissioners and their generous gravy train.

My attitude is I want the best for the UK and its citizens as I always want the best for everybody. I deliberately don't do political dogma and if you look back through my posts where I'm right wing I support 'left wing' campaigns on this basis for justice and transparency like the recent one on secrecy by IDS. With a strong engineering and science background, the pragmatic approach is what works is what works for the betterment of mankind. The EU IMO fails this test which is why I support Leave.

Finally, the question and answer boils down to who governs us? An appointed Brussels dictatorship which is currently fairly benign (by global standards!) but still an appointed dictatorship who might appoint Orban, Le Pen or a Hitler or Stalin in the future with the rise of the extreme left and right as a result of the EUs democratic deficit. There are no democratic checks or balances to stop this happening! Personally, I would rather rely on our 800 years of evolving democracy and since the 16th century stability (after civil war) where many countries have not be so fortunate so we are still in the very privileged position of being the 5th biggest economy in the world.

Your vote, your choice on the 23rd June, use it wisely.

[johnny_boy]

I was wondering when hitler would get brought up.
Bit late in the day, but leave never dissapoints.

Btw in france, spain germany they have strong unions and employment legislation unlike here so wages being undercut by migrants is perhaps wishful thinking on leaves part.

But why let reality get in your way?

[Kevin Wood]

I was wondering when hitler would get brought up.
Bit late in the day, but leave never dissapoints.

Btw in france, spain germany they have strong unions and employment legislation unlike here so wages being undercut by migrants is perhaps wishful thinking on leaves part.

But why let reality get in your way?

... But I see that you don't have an issue in it being called a dictatorship, so we're getting somewhere.

This is the problem I have with the EU. As Rods2 said, it's a benign dictatorship. It's carefully constructed to have a veneer of "democracy" on the outside whilst those at the core look after their vested interests free from accountability.

An exit won't solve any perceived problems with immigration, nor will it be the end of the world for our foreign trade. On a practical level things will probably continue much as they are once the dust has settled.

I'm increasingly of the opinion that the march of the EU must be stopped, however.

[Doctor Gollum]

I was wondering when hitler would get brought up.
Bit late in the day, but leave never dissapoints.

Btw in france, spain germany they have strong unions and employment legislation unlike here so wages being undercut by migrants is perhaps wishful thinking on leaves part.[/highlights]

But why let reality get in your way?

Au contraire, Rodney, au contraire.

By example, aircraft cleaners here get paid about £1 per hour more now than they did 12 years ago. They are split approximately 50% British, 23% Eastern European, 23% Portuguese (predominantly Madeiran) and the remainder ROW.

Prior to 2004, it was nearer 85% British, 5% EU, (Spanish/Portuguese/French),10% ROW.

Then they were paid overtime rates of between 50 and 75% and received sick pay. Now it's flat rate, statutory and the Working Time Directive is being applied more and more thoroughly.

Sure, that is only one example from one industry, but talking around, it seems to be a common situation... ie the more the EU expands, the less wages and conditions keep pace even with inflation...

[LC0112G]

Au contraire, Rodney, au contraire.

By example, aircraft cleaners here get paid about £1 per hour more now than they did 12 years ago. They are split approximately 50% British, 23% Eastern European, 23% Portuguese (predominantly Madeiran) and the remainder ROW.

Prior to 2004, it was nearer 85% British, 5% EU, (Spanish/Portuguese/French),10% ROW.

Then they were paid overtime rates of between 50 and 75% and received sick pay. Now it's flat rate, statutory and the Working Time Directive is being applied more and more thoroughly.

Sure, that is only one example from one industry, but talking around, it seems to be a common situation... ie the more the EU expands, the less wages and conditions keep pace even with inflation...

Of course importing labour tends to depress wages - and that effect tends to be more concentrated in the lower skilled jobs. But, Why do you expect Brexit to change that for the better?

The Brexiteers seem undecided on what route they would take to retain free trade with the EU, but either EFTA or EEA membership seem the most likely routes. Both of these demand the free movement of people, so the flow of EU nationals into the UK 'depressing wages' is unlikely to change.

In order to continue flying to EU destinations on anything like the scale we do now, we are also going to have to apply to join the ECAA since our membership is currently by virtue of our EU membership. These negotiations involve coming to an agreement with the EU, and typically take a few years to be ratified.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Common_Aviation_Area

If we don't join the ECAA then British airlines will be in the same boat as Qantas/AA/UAL etc when trying to agree flights and routes into the EU. It'd be the end for Ryanair and Easyjet in the UK, and many/most of the aircraft cleaners jobs.

The chances of the UK leaving the EU, not allowing free movement of EU nationals, and continuing to fly the same number of flights per day into the EU, are miniscule. So careful what you wish for.

[johnny_boy]

That sounds dangerously reasoned and thought through, using verifiable facts and as such has no part of the brexit debate.

[Nick W]

That sounds dangerously reasoned and thought through, using verifiable facts and as such has no part of the brexit debate. debacle

Fixed that for you

[STEMO]

I've got my fingers in my ears now, just don't want to hear any more.

[Laird of Lochaber]

I've got my fingers in my ears now, just don't want to hear any more.

Spot on !!       

[Nick W]

I've got my fingers in my ears now, just don't want to hear any more.

If that's so, how are you navigating the internet?


No, don't answer that, none of the possibilities are suitable for civilised society

[Doctor Gollum]

Neither of the airlines you mention are actually cleaned during the flying day, and one of them isn't even based in the UK... the other one is bankrolled by Emirates

[gbh]

For all voters you should watch the Daily Politics program today,they had a politician from Norway talking about the Norwegian campaign for EU membership.The Inners used the exact same argument that the remainers are using,£3000 worst off,pensions down,economic collapse,etc etc.You are being conned if you vote for in just open your eyes and watch this Norwegian lady,the Norwegians showed heart and brain and twice have voted not to join and Switzerland just withdrew its application!!!!!!!

[Shackeng]

If you haven't read it, Freddy Forsyth puts the case for leaving very succinctly ;
http://www.express.co.uk/comment/columnists/frederick-forsyth/651377/Brexit-referendum-EU-never-meant-to-be-democracy-says-Frederick-Forsyth