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Author Topic: I think I just got caught  (Read 10192 times)

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Mister Rog

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Re: I think I just got caught
« Reply #45 on: 15 October 2016, 08:52:00 »

I can think of a number of times when I got "Flashed" and nothing happened. Particularly once on the M25, I was convinced that there would be a letter in the post, but nope. Got flashed in France in July, nothing yet, probably not worth it  :y

However, a mobile camera in a van, my view is that there will usually be a letter  >:( but I'm usually wrong so SWMBO tells me
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Gaffers

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Re: I think I just got caught
« Reply #46 on: 15 October 2016, 10:18:07 »

I think you still have to wait a couple more just to be sure.  If it is dated and sent within the 14 days it doesn't matter if it arrives in 15 or 18 days.

Wrong.

The NIP must be "served" within 14 days. "Served" has a specific legal meaning defined in "The Interpretations Act 1978" http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1978/30

Basically, if a NIP is posted, it must go by First Class post, and such that it should arrive at the recipient within 14 days. First class post is deemed to be delivered on the second working day after postage unless the recipient can prove that it was not. So posting on day 13 or 14 is a get out of jail free card. Even posting on days 11 or 12 might be a get out of jail card if Weekends or Bank Holidays get in the way.

You still have to wait for misdelivery/later than normal post.  ?T?hey dont have to prove that you received it on time, just that under normal circumstances that you wold have :y
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STEMO

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Re: I think I just got caught
« Reply #47 on: 15 October 2016, 12:08:31 »

I think you still have to wait a couple more just to be sure.  If it is dated and sent within the 14 days it doesn't matter if it arrives in 15 or 18 days.

Wrong.

The NIP must be "served" within 14 days. "Served" has a specific legal meaning defined in "The Interpretations Act 1978" http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1978/30

Basically, if a NIP is posted, it must go by First Class post, and such that it should arrive at the recipient within 14 days. First class post is deemed to be delivered on the second working day after postage unless the recipient can prove that it was not. So posting on day 13 or 14 is a get out of jail free card. Even posting on days 11 or 12 might be a get out of jail card if Weekends or Bank Holidays get in the way.

You still have to wait for misdelivery/later than normal post.  ?T?hey dont have to prove that you received it on time, just that under normal circumstances that you wold have :y
Bollicks. I know my postman very well and I know what the envelope looks like. He would back me up, but no need, cause it ain't coming.  :P
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JamesV6CDX

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Re: I think I just got caught
« Reply #48 on: 15 October 2016, 12:28:39 »

If you want an NIP this badly, I could post one out? ;D
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STEMO

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Re: I think I just got caught
« Reply #49 on: 15 October 2016, 12:41:48 »

If you want an NIP this badly, I could post one out? ;D
No thanks, James, just send me a book of parking tickets please. Some of my neighbours could certainly do with them.  >:(
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YZ250

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Re: I think I just got caught
« Reply #50 on: 15 October 2016, 13:47:59 »

I think you still have to wait a couple more just to be sure.  If it is dated and sent within the 14 days it doesn't matter if it arrives in 15 or 18 days.

Wrong.

The NIP must be "served" within 14 days. "Served" has a specific legal meaning defined in "The Interpretations Act 1978" http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1978/30

Basically, if a NIP is posted, it must go by First Class post, and such that it should arrive at the recipient within 14 days. First class post is deemed to be delivered on the second working day after postage unless the recipient can prove that it was not. So posting on day 13 or 14 is a get out of jail free card. Even posting on days 11 or 12 might be a get out of jail card if Weekends or Bank Holidays get in the way.

You still have to wait for misdelivery/later than normal post.  ?T?hey dont have to prove that you received it on time, just that under normal circumstances that you wold have :y

I'm aware of the 14 day Law as it's been pointed out several times before but just for info neither of my Nip's arrived within that time frame. I was apparently guilty of both offences, as shown on requested photographs, so I'm not contesting that.  ::)

My first Nip arrived on the 31st day after the offence so I duly challenged the late arrival. I was informed that as the paperwork had been processed and sent out on the 11th day after the offence I would still be charged. I tried challenging the Nip for late arrival, admittedly only by responding to the S172 and also writing to a local court clerk for their take on the 'Law', and the response I received was that their view was that the Nip had been posted within a reasonable time frame that would have led the Police/Speed awareness people to believe that it would arrive on time. They said that the postal service was beyond their control. I paid the fine and took the points.

My second Nip arrived on the 26th day after the offence, so armed with more info off here I posted a question asking if anybody on here had challenged the 14 day Nip notification. On advice from here I joined PepiPoo and drafted a letter using a letter template as suggested. The response that I received this time was pretty much the same as before, stating that they could not be accountable for the postal service. Again the date on the letter was within the specified time frame.  ::) I was lucky enough to be offered a speed awareness course as the time between offences was over three years.

Both vehicles were registered to me on the log book so tracing me was not an issue. Perhaps I bailed out too early but I didn't relish going to court over something so trivial.

I was told that the Nip process had to be started within 14 days so if it is actually a 'Law' to receive it within 14 days then I have been lied to by the authorities twice now.  :-\

I'm not arguing the point, just speaking from my own personal experience.

« Last Edit: 15 October 2016, 13:53:12 by YZ250 »
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Field Marshal Dr. Opti

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Re: I think I just got caught
« Reply #52 on: 15 October 2016, 16:43:31 »

I think they should send you down for a very long time. :)




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Sir Tigger KC

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Re: I think I just got caught
« Reply #53 on: 15 October 2016, 17:28:01 »

I think they should send you down for a very long time. :)

Big Winston is licking his lips in anticipation!  :o   ;D
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STEMO

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Re: I think I just got caught
« Reply #54 on: 15 October 2016, 18:00:46 »

I think they should send you down for a very long time. :)

Big Winston is licking his lips in anticipation!  :o   ;D
Me too  :-*
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YZ250

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Re: I think I just got caught
« Reply #55 on: 15 October 2016, 18:35:30 »

http://www.motorlawyers.co.uk/procedure/notice_of_intended_prosecution.php

Quote
If you are the registered keeper of the vehicle and the ISSUE date on the Notice of Intended Prosecution is more than 14 days after the offence, then you can reject it

Which pretty much confirms what they told me, that they only have to have started proceedings within 14 days. I.e. The Nip must be dated within the 14 day period.  :-\
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LC0112G

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Re: I think I just got caught
« Reply #56 on: 15 October 2016, 19:18:34 »

I think you still have to wait a couple more just to be sure.  If it is dated and sent within the 14 days it doesn't matter if it arrives in 15 or 18 days.

Wrong.

The NIP must be "served" within 14 days. "Served" has a specific legal meaning defined in "The Interpretations Act 1978" http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1978/30

Basically, if a NIP is posted, it must go by First Class post, and such that it should arrive at the recipient within 14 days. First class post is deemed to be delivered on the second working day after postage unless the recipient can prove that it was not. So posting on day 13 or 14 is a get out of jail free card. Even posting on days 11 or 12 might be a get out of jail card if Weekends or Bank Holidays get in the way.

You still have to wait for misdelivery/later than normal post.  ?T?hey dont have to prove that you received it on time, just that under normal circumstances that you wold have :y

No - you don't. It's called a rebuttal position.

The NIP is presumed delivered on the 2nd working day after it was put into the postal system. However, if you can prove that it was not delivered within time, then you are not guilty of the offence. You must be able to prove it beyond reasonable doubt though - If you can get your postie to attend court and state under oath the date that it was actually delivered then that will be good enough. However, standing up in court and simply saying you didn't get it within time is very unlikely to be enough.

The law is the law. The S172 must be served within 14 days of the offence. Served means delivered.
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LC0112G

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Re: I think I just got caught
« Reply #57 on: 15 October 2016, 19:24:06 »

Which pretty much confirms what they told me, that they only have to have started proceedings within 14 days. I.e. The Nip must be dated within the 14 day period.  :-\

No. Wrong.

The NIP must be served within 14 days. Served (basically) means delivered. 1st class post is presumes served on Day 2 after posting. Therefore a postal NIP can only be vaild if dated within 12 days. And it's working days - so weekends and Bank holidays matter.
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jimbobmccoy

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Re: I think I just got caught
« Reply #58 on: 15 October 2016, 20:10:09 »

It must be issued within 14 days, and that is all.

To be served within 14 days would mean near enough any lease/company car driver would be immune.

It also ignores the fact that police have, at least, 6 months to prosecute, not 14 days, or 12 using your 2 days for postage logic.

What if someone was on holiday for two weeks, starting the day before the NiP was delivered, would they be immune because they hadn't been 'served'?

Or how about, don't speed, and if you do, and get caught, take your medicine instead of trying to wriggle out of it, and maybe look at lives that have been ruined, or lost, because of excess speed and recklessness?

/rant
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LC0112G

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Re: I think I just got caught
« Reply #59 on: 15 October 2016, 21:20:34 »

It must be issued within 14 days, and that is all.

No. Absolutely No. How many times does it need explaining!

Section 1 of the ROTA 1988 says http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/53/section/1
Quote
1 Requirement of warning etc. of prosecutions for certain offences.

(1)Subject to section 2 of this Act, [F1a person shall not be convicted of an offence to which this section applies unless

(a)he was warned at the time the offence was committed that the question of prosecuting him for some one or other of e offences to which this section applies would be taken into consideration, or

(b) within fourteen days of the commission of the offence a summons (or, in Scotland, a complaint) for the offence was served on him, or

(c) within fourteen days of the commission of the offence a notice of the intended prosecution specifying the nature of the alleged offence and the time and place where it is alleged to have been committed, was—

(i) in the case of an offence under section 28 or 29 of the M1Road Traffic Act 1988 (cycling offences), served on him,

(ii) in the case of any other offence, served on him or on the person, if any, registered as the keeper of the vehicle at the time of the commission of the offence.

Section 1-1-c-ii is the relevant bit for speeding, so the S172/NIP must be served on the Registered Keeper within 14 days. Served has a specific legal meaning defined in section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 the http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1978/30

Quote
7 References to service by post.
Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.

So service is deemed to be on normal delivery, which for 1st class post is 2 working days. http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2009/2924.html

Quote

With effect from 16 April 1985 the Practice Direction issued on 30 July 1968 is hereby revoked and the following is substituted therefore.
1). Under S7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 service by post is deemed to have been effected, unless the contrary has been proved, at the time when the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.
2). To avoid uncertainty as to the date of service it will be taken (subject to proof to the contrary) that delivery in the ordinary course of post was effected:-
(a) in the case of first class mail, on the second working day after posting;
(b) in the case of second class mail, on the fourth working day after posting.
"Working days" are Monday to Friday, excluding any bank holiday.
3). Affidavits of service shall state whether the document was dispatched by first or second class mail. If this information is omitted it will be assumed that second class mail was used.
4). This direction is subject to the special provisions of RSC Order 10, rule 1(3) relating to the service of originating process.

8th March 1985
J R BICKFORD SMITH Senior Master
Queen's Bench Division

High court decisions are binding on lower courts - the Magistrates cannot choose to interpret the meanings differently.

Hence a NIP/S172 dated, printed and posted on days 13 or 14 cannot possibly be deemed to have been served within the 14 days required by the RTOA

To be served within 14 days would mean near enough any lease/company car driver would be immune.

Only the Recorded keeper must be served the first notice within 14 days. For a lease/company car that would be whoever is on record at DVLA as being the keeper. Once the lease company receive it, they must reply nominating a driver. The Police will then issue a second NIP/S172 to the nominated person. There is NO time limit on this second(or third or fourth) NIP.

It also ignores the fact that police have, at least, 6 months to prosecute, not 14 days, or 12 using your 2 days for postage logic.

Read Section 1 of the RTOA again - "a person shall not be convicted of an offence to which this section applies unless..." A late NIP will prevent a successful prosecution.

What if someone was on holiday for two weeks, starting the day before the NiP was delivered, would they be immune because they hadn't been 'served'?
No. The nip is deemed "served" when it drops through the letter box at the address held by DVLA for the RK. Doesn't matter if you are in, out or shaking it all about. 

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