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[Sir Tigger KC]

It is apples and pears you are comparing.

Firstly most of the EU nationals are working in the UK and thus entitled to healthcare for themselves and dependents. Most of the expats abroad and certainly where Spain is concerned are retired. The UK currently pays an annual per capita fee for them to have free healthcare. Without that most couldnt afford private healthcare which in any case would exclude existing health conditions plus they would have to pay for medicine which currently costs just ten per cent.

That's a fair comment, but I'm always a bit skeptical of the oft repeated mantra that immigrants pay more into the system than they take out.  Many of them do minimum wage type jobs, so claim tax credits, housing benefit, child benefit etc so their contribution in many cases is probably neutral if not negative.  Also I wonder how many of the thousands of the car wash guys submit a tax return? 

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

It is apples and pears you are comparing.

Firstly most of the EU nationals are working in the UK and thus entitled to healthcare for themselves and dependents. Most of the expats abroad and certainly where Spain is concerned are retired. The UK currently pays an annual per capita fee for them to have free healthcare. Without that most couldnt afford private healthcare which in any case would exclude existing health conditions plus they would have to pay for medicine which currently costs just ten per cent.

That's a fair comment, but I'm always a bit skeptical of the oft repeated mantra that immigrants pay more into the system than they take out.  Many of them do minimum wage type jobs, so claim tax credits, housing benefit, child benefit etc so their contribution in many cases is probably neutral if not negative.  Also I wonder how many of the thousands of the car wash guys submit a tax return? 

Hard to know which mantra to believe.

One I certainly don't believe, and one that is regularly trotted out by right wing Tories, is that the top 1% of earners pay the top 30% (or similar) of tax.

In my experience the very wealthy pay very little tax. Hot shot lawyers and expensive accountants see to that.

Most of the tax burden falls on middle earners. The 'working poor' pay little tax and rightly so.

[aaronjb]

Do they pay very little as a proportion of their income, or very little?

Someone earning £1,000,000 who has managed to dodge the majority of tax and only pays an effective rate of 10% is still paying £100,000
Someone who earns £100,000 and pays an effective rate of 40% is paying £40,000 - still £60,000 short of that tax dodging millionaire.

[Sir Tigger KC]

One I certainly don't believe, and one that is regularly trotted out by right wing Tories, is that the top 1% of earners pay the top 30% (or similar) of tax.

According to the IFS the top 1% of earners pay 27% of income tax collected and the top 50% pay 90% of income tax.  So you're right not to believe the 30% line, but it's not far off. 

Page 3 & 4 of this paper from the IFS.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

One I certainly don't believe, and one that is regularly trotted out by right wing Tories, is that the top 1% of earners pay the top 30% (or similar) of tax.

According to the IFS the top 1% of earners pay 27% of income tax collected and the top 50% pay 90% of income tax.  So you're right not to believe the 30% line, but it's not far off. 

Page 3 & 4 of this paper from the IFS.

I refuse to believe the rich pay (or have ever paid) much tax.

The expression lies, damn lies, and statistics comes to mind.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Do they pay very little as a proportion of their income, or very little?

Someone earning £1,000,000 who has managed to dodge the majority of tax and only pays an effective rate of 10% is still paying £100,000
Someone who earns £100,000 and pays an effective rate of 40% is paying £40,000 - still £60,000 short of that tax dodging millionaire.

Both.

What pisses me off is that the tax man and the super rich actually come to an agreement or 'accommodation' about how much tax they are willing to pay.

You or I are simply told pay up or else.

[Sir Tigger KC]

Do they pay very little as a proportion of their income, or very little?

Someone earning £1,000,000 who has managed to dodge the majority of tax and only pays an effective rate of 10% is still paying £100,000
Someone who earns £100,000 and pays an effective rate of 40% is paying £40,000 - still £60,000 short of that tax dodging millionaire.

Both.

What pisses me off is that the tax man and the super rich actually come to an agreement or 'accommodation' about how much tax they are willing to pay.

You or I are simply told pay up or else.

I agree with this M'lud, especially where big companies are involved.  The other corporate scam that pisses me off is where multi national companies can report earnings in the UK, in places like Luxembourg or Lichtenstein. 

If the money is earned here, then the tax should be paid here! 

[Sir Tigger KC]

One I certainly don't believe, and one that is regularly trotted out by right wing Tories, is that the top 1% of earners pay the top 30% (or similar) of tax.

According to the IFS the top 1% of earners pay 27% of income tax collected and the top 50% pay 90% of income tax.  So you're right not to believe the 30% line, but it's not far off. 

Page 3 & 4 of this paper from the IFS.

I refuse to believe the rich pay (or have ever paid) much tax.

The expression lies, damn lies, and statistics comes to mind.

I think a study by the IFS is more believable than what you read in your Daily Mirror M'lud!   

[Viral_Jim]

What is also worth considering is how large a range of income "the top 1%" covers.

At the bottom end of that 1%, you were earning £108k in 2014/15 according to gov.uk. While I'm by no means saying that's chicken feed, it leaves very little scope to (cost effectively) avoid any tax. Other than committing money to a pension of course, which I assume is a form of tax avoidance which is socially acceptable to most.

At the other end of the 1% you have people like that racketeer Philip Green, who really do pay very little tax.

[tunnie]

What is also worth considering is how large a range of income "the top 1%" covers.

At the bottom end of that 1%, you were earning £108k in 2014/15 according to gov.uk. While I'm by no means saying that's chicken feed, it leaves very little scope to (cost effectively) avoid any tax. Other than committing money to a pension of course, which I assume is a form of tax avoidance which is socially acceptable to most.

At the other end of the 1% you have people like that racketeer Philip Green, who really do pay very little tax.

Indeed, which puts me against this whole "tax the rich business"- I suspect our Head of Department would be classed in this 1%.... he is not "rich" -  He drives a Land Rover Freelander, supports his wife and kids.

One day I would like to be in his role, be in 10 years down the road.

Is it wrong of me to think I actually want a reduction in the welfare state? 

See far too many people earning what we are told is 25-30k in benefits and not bothering to work.

[STEMO]

I like this song 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/31/liar-liar-anti-theresa-may-song-heads-to-top-of-charts

[RobG]

I suspect our Head of Department would be classed in this 1%.... he is not "rich"

If I was earning 108K pa or thereabouts I would class myself as rich

[aaronjb]

I suspect our Head of Department would be classed in this 1%.... he is not "rich"

If I was earning 108K pa or thereabouts I would class myself as rich

I wouldn't.. 

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

What is also worth considering is how large a range of income "the top 1%" covers.

At the bottom end of that 1%, you were earning £108k in 2014/15 according to gov.uk. While I'm by no means saying that's chicken feed, it leaves very little scope to (cost effectively) avoid any tax. Other than committing money to a pension of course, which I assume is a form of tax avoidance which is socially acceptable to most.

At the other end of the 1% you have people like that racketeer Philip Green, who really do pay very little tax.

I like this parasite about as much as I like that arrogant turd Jeremy Kyle.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

One I certainly don't believe, and one that is regularly trotted out by right wing Tories, is that the top 1% of earners pay the top 30% (or similar) of tax.

According to the IFS the top 1% of earners pay 27% of income tax collected and the top 50% pay 90% of income tax.  So you're right not to believe the 30% line, but it's not far off. 

Page 3 & 4 of this paper from the IFS.

I refuse to believe the rich pay (or have ever paid) much tax.

The expression lies, damn lies, and statistics comes to mind.

I think a study by the IFS is more believable than what you read in your Daily Mirror M'lud!   

The Mirror is just a lefty version of the Sun. Same old crap but in left wing form to dupe the gullible and intellectually bereft.