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Author Topic: Boris interview on BBC this morning  (Read 5570 times)

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Kevin Wood

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Re: Boris interview on BBC this morning
« Reply #15 on: 27 April 2017, 12:43:51 »

Sir Tigger, a mugwump was an invention of Michael Bentine's, back in the days of black and white telly; it was a (mythical?) creature, maybe a hairy dog - memory won't let me be more specific than that - whose front and rear were so indistinguishable that you couldn't tell its "mug" from its "wump" . Just like that arse-face from EastEnders, Sonia!

Ron.

Now, if it were a creature which couldn't tell its own @rse from its' elbow...
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STEMO

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Re: Boris interview on BBC this morning
« Reply #16 on: 27 April 2017, 13:06:04 »

We were in the last Korean War, so why not this one if it kicks off.

We are allies of the US, and have the biggest military capacity in Europe. It is only reasonable that Boris was asked THE question.  We certainly are a potential player in this game which does / could affect us seriously. :y

I would really like to think that is true, but I very much doubt it. Please prove me wrong

No Problem:

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/study-finds-uk-is-second-most-powerful-country-in-the-world/

http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=united-kingdom


I do admit though there seems to be some confusion as to how powerful Britain's military is.  Some say 5th, others 6th, then, as per one of the above links, we are 2nd in terms of how far our military power can reach. :y :y
That first link is subjective and doesn't use actual figures. The second one says we have two? aircraft carriers and actually quotes Wikipedia as one of its sources.
« Last Edit: 27 April 2017, 13:09:19 by STEMO »
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Boris interview on BBC this morning
« Reply #17 on: 27 April 2017, 18:02:48 »

We were in the last Korean War, so why not this one if it kicks off.

We are allies of the US, and have the biggest military capacity in Europe. It is only reasonable that Boris was asked THE question.  We certainly are a potential player in this game which does / could affect us seriously. :y

I would really like to think that is true, but I very much doubt it. Please prove me wrong

No Problem:

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/study-finds-uk-is-second-most-powerful-country-in-the-world/

http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=united-kingdom


I do admit though there seems to be some confusion as to how powerful Britain's military is.  Some say 5th, others 6th, then, as per one of the above links, we are 2nd in terms of how far our military power can reach. :y :y
That first link is subjective and doesn't use actual figures. The second one says we have two? aircraft carriers and actually quotes Wikipedia as one of its sources.

As I stated, there is some confusion of where the UK rates in the World's military ranking. ;)

It is clear though that the actual power / force available, if you allow for the Trident submarines and other nuclear capability, we are up the top of the rankings whichever way you cut it.  That is why Europe was so keen to have a Euro Military, with the UK giving the biggest share.  Won't happen now, and we stay close to the US.

Also do not forget the UK has never had a large standing peace time army, and our power is in the Royal Navy and RAF.  The former could easily destroy multiple cities, with it's nuclear capacity, without an Army boot touching the ground.

Obviously the only way to test all the tables and theories is to have a war; but who wants that if it can be avoided?
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Varche

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Re: Boris interview on BBC this morning
« Reply #18 on: 27 April 2017, 19:07:51 »

We were in the last Korean War, so why not this one if it kicks off.

We are allies of the US, and have the biggest military capacity in Europe. It is only reasonable that Boris was asked THE question.  We certainly are a potential player in this game which does / could affect us seriously. :y

I would really like to think that is true, but I very much doubt it. Please prove me wrong

No Problem:

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/study-finds-uk-is-second-most-powerful-country-in-the-world/

http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=united-kingdom


I do admit though there seems to be some confusion as to how powerful Britain's military is.  Some say 5th, others 6th, then, as per one of the above links, we are 2nd in terms of how far our military power can reach. :y :y
That first link is subjective and doesn't use actual figures. The second one says we have two? aircraft carriers and actually quotes Wikipedia as one of its sources.

As I stated, there is some confusion of where the UK rates in the World's military ranking. ;)

It is clear though that the actual power / force available, if you allow for the Trident submarines and other nuclear capability, we are up the top of the rankings whichever way you cut it.  That is why Europe was so keen to have a Euro Military, with the UK giving the biggest share.  Won't happen now, and we stay close to the US.

Also do not forget the UK has never had a large standing peace time army, and our power is in the Royal Navy and RAF.  The former could easily destroy multiple cities, with it's nuclear capacity, without an Army boot touching the ground.

Obviously the only way to test all the tables and theories is to have a war; but who wants that if it can be avoided?

Do you think the idea of an EU "army" has died a death then? My gut feeling is that Brexit makes it more desirable for the EU. I have no doubt that the loss of UK element will be a blow. Perhaps the EU will get behind NATo again and dare I say pull their weight by making their agreed contribution. ( Germany has agreed to up theirs but it still won't be anything like their commitment). Just the small problem of Turkey! maybe an EU military has legs after all......
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Boris interview on BBC this morning
« Reply #19 on: 27 April 2017, 19:43:24 »

We were in the last Korean War, so why not this one if it kicks off.

We are allies of the US, and have the biggest military capacity in Europe. It is only reasonable that Boris was asked THE question.  We certainly are a potential player in this game which does / could affect us seriously. :y

I would really like to think that is true, but I very much doubt it. Please prove me wrong

No Problem:

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/study-finds-uk-is-second-most-powerful-country-in-the-world/

http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=united-kingdom


I do admit though there seems to be some confusion as to how powerful Britain's military is.  Some say 5th, others 6th, then, as per one of the above links, we are 2nd in terms of how far our military power can reach. :y :y
That first link is subjective and doesn't use actual figures. The second one says we have two? aircraft carriers and actually quotes Wikipedia as one of its sources.

As I stated, there is some confusion of where the UK rates in the World's military ranking. ;)

It is clear though that the actual power / force available, if you allow for the Trident submarines and other nuclear capability, we are up the top of the rankings whichever way you cut it.  That is why Europe was so keen to have a Euro Military, with the UK giving the biggest share.  Won't happen now, and we stay close to the US.

Also do not forget the UK has never had a large standing peace time army, and our power is in the Royal Navy and RAF.  The former could easily destroy multiple cities, with it's nuclear capacity, without an Army boot touching the ground.

Obviously the only way to test all the tables and theories is to have a war; but who wants that if it can be avoided?

Do you think the idea of an EU "army" has died a death then? My gut feeling is that Brexit makes it more desirable for the EU. I have no doubt that the loss of UK element will be a blow. Perhaps the EU will get behind NATo again and dare I say pull their weight by making their agreed contribution. ( Germany has agreed to up theirs but it still won't be anything like their commitment). Just the small problem of Turkey! maybe an EU military has legs after all......

I personally cannot see the Brexitiers accepting the UK being part of a Euro Military Force, and UK money going towards it.  From what I have heard from the Government the UK is going to build up the Royal Navy to ensure it is an even more powerful force in it's own right, with Britain again properly on the World stage.

Time will of course tell, but why would the UK want to be part of anything to do with Europe in terms of it's institutions / enforcement agents?  That was, I thought as a Remainer part of what Brexit was all about.  Perhaps I'm wrong, but why? :-\
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Varche

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Re: Boris interview on BBC this morning
« Reply #20 on: 27 April 2017, 20:57:22 »

No, I think you misread my question. Do you think the Eu will still go ahead and have an EU military (army for want of a better word) without the UK.?
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Boris interview on BBC this morning
« Reply #21 on: 27 April 2017, 21:59:10 »

No, I think you misread my question. Do you think the Eu will still go ahead and have an EU military (army for want of a better word) without the UK.?

Sorry Varche.  To answer that question I would say not.  All the time there is a state of uncertainty in Europe, financially as well as politically, I just cannot see it happening.  They have had decades to bring about a European force, but instead they have relied, and to some extent so has the UK, on the USA. The Cold War was the focus of that policy. Now they still hope that the US will come to their aid if the Russians or anyone else sends tanks West across the plains of Europe.

Perhaps Trump has brought all European nations around to the reality of the situation now. But with Trump sending mixed messages, who knows what will happen. One thing for sure the Conservative Government in the UK are doing what you should expect; boosting the armed forces with money from somewhere (higher taxes?) :D
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Re: Boris interview on BBC this morning
« Reply #22 on: 27 April 2017, 22:11:43 »

I believe they will intend to press ahead with the EU army. Its a vital component of the project. They fully intend to have a U.S.E. which will at least be equal to the U.S.A. and render NATO redundant.
This is probably why they deliberately welch on their NATO commitments and try to starve it of funds.
Having a defence force is vital to achieve that aim. Of course its all nonsensical and will collapse around them, but they are deluded beyond reason and drunk with power so cant see that.
Its interesting to note that everyone in this country who is an incurable Europhile, were denying the very possibility of an EU defence force, or even an EU defence policy, as recently as a couple of years ago. Nick Clegg claimed it was not only a lie, but highly dangerous scaremongering.
If LePen gets elected in France in a few weeks time, it will collapse sooner than anyone thought it would.
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Boris interview on BBC this morning
« Reply #23 on: 27 April 2017, 22:23:53 »

However, after all I have said in this thread, I would make the point that it is not necessarily how big a country's military forces are, but the strength and advancement of their defences. That is an historical fact.

From Alexander the Great defeating the Persions who had a force three their size; to Agincourt and Henry V  defeating a far larger French army; the superior Spanish Amarda being wrecked by a small English naval force (with a little luck thrown in) to Nelson defeating the far larger combined French and Spanish fleet at Trafalgar, and to Fighter Command of the RAF halting the advancement of far larger German forces, it was intelligence, technology, skill, knowledge, discipline, training, tactics and great weapons that defeated or at least halted a far larger force.  There are many more examples in the history books, but they are examples iof how battles / wars are won.

It is not down to just military might, and all nations should remember that if proposing a war.

PS It is also the strength or weakness of an individual leader that can make all the difference.
« Last Edit: 27 April 2017, 22:31:16 by Lizzie Zoom »
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Rods2

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Re: Boris interview on BBC this morning
« Reply #24 on: 27 April 2017, 22:31:11 »

The problem with European defense forces is that since 1991 they have been progressively hollowed out with an example being UK spending being cut from 4% of GDP to 2% of GDP, with that stupid prime minister bank manager Major starting the rot. :(

Much equipment which count with our in-theory numbers; are in storage, have been cannibalized for spares to keep a small number serviceable, there are limited supplies or no ammunition and other vital logistics. The fact that our navy will not have any anti-ship missiles from this year with the decommissioning of the last of the Harpoon SSMs, until 2020 in this uncertain world means we are really riding our luck in this and many other areas. Until 2020 the ship's only defense will be the main gun with a range of a few miles. >:( >:( >:(

The fact that since the scrapping of the MOD Procurement Executive, we have had no Government experts, specifying and overseeing equipment specification and procurement, means that equipment project after project have at best had cost overruns and at worst has involved £100m's for them never to reach the point of production or enter service. >:( >:( >:(
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Boris interview on BBC this morning
« Reply #25 on: 27 April 2017, 22:59:50 »

The problem with European defense forces is that since 1991 they have been progressively hollowed out with an example being UK spending being cut may 4% of GDP to 2% of GDP, with that stupid prime minister bank manager Major starting the rot. :(

Much equipment which count with our in-theory numbers; are in storage, have been cannibalized for spares to keep a small number serviceable, there are limited supplies or no ammunition and other vital logistics. The fact that our navy will not have any anti-ship missiles from this year with the decommissioning of the last of the Harpoon SSMs, until 2020 in this uncertain world means we are really riding our luck in this and many other areas. Until 2020 the ship's only defense will be the main gun with a range of a few miles. >:( >:( >:(

The fact that since the scrapping of the MOD Procurement Executive, we have had no Government experts, specifying and overseeing equipment specification and procurement, means that equipment project after project have at best had cost overruns and at worst has involved £100m's for them never to reach the point of production or enter service. >:( >:( >:(

The cut in spending Rod was down to the "Peace Dividend" after the fall of the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War. It was always going to happen as, since 1945, the British forces had been kept to a level considered suitable to meet any Soviet attack, but then the country needed to consider other priorities. Not really what most of us on the right of politics wanted, but the socialist in me understood why.

What is done is done, and perhaps we are in a situation now as we were in 1937/8.  Our military wound down after WW1, with the new force for modern battle, the aeroplane not up to date with mostly obsolete aircraft, and an army small enough to have almost been wiped out in one go later in 1940. Our navy did not have the right ships, with the high command still set on war using battleships, not the aircraft carriers that would be needed.  So yes, we have been here before, but I hope that behind the scenes things are happening, and certain officials are being woken up to the reality of life.

I admire, as always the detail of your posts, the last one being no exception Rod, but how do you know how short of shells and missiles we are?  Would this information not be top secret, as it is highly sensitive and would aid our enemies?  Do you think that actually the true situation is one of "we have enough, but we are restocking? :-\
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Re: Boris interview on BBC this morning
« Reply #26 on: 27 April 2017, 23:20:35 »

What is done is done, and perhaps we are in a situation now as we were in 1937/8. Our military wound down after WW1, with the new force for modern battle, the aeroplane not up to date with mostly obsolete aircraft, and an army small enough to have almost been wiped out in one go later in 1940. Our navy did not have the right ships, with the high command still set on war using battleships, not the aircraft carriers that would be needed.  So yes, we have been here before, but I hope that behind the scenes things are happening, and certain officials are being woken up to the reality of life.



Military equipment is always restocked to fight the last war better. How else can you do this, as you have no clue what clever idea is going to come  the next time somebody pulls a trigger?


And my grandfather(a man with 7 years in the Ordnance Corps before Dunkirk) reckoned the best thing that happened to the pre-WW2 British army kit was to dump it in Northern France. I doubt the Navy was any better off.
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Re: Boris interview on BBC this morning
« Reply #27 on: 27 April 2017, 23:57:05 »


I have to be honest and say that I have not read all of the responses etc on this. I just can't be arsed

My simple question is : Have we got an adequate quantity of available ships. planes, bombs, soldiers, intelligence, expertise etc to deal with some immediate and major threat to our national security ?

My take on this is, No. We do not . . . . right now, at this moment.

Yes or No. Answers on a postcard
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Varche

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Re: Boris interview on BBC this morning
« Reply #28 on: 28 April 2017, 07:33:10 »

I believe they will intend to press ahead with the EU army. Its a vital component of the project. They fully intend to have a U.S.E. which will at least be equal to the U.S.A. and render NATO redundant.
This is probably why they deliberately welch on their NATO commitments and try to starve it of funds.
Having a defence force is vital to achieve that aim. Of course its all nonsensical and will collapse around them, but they are deluded beyond reason and drunk with power so cant see that.
Its interesting to note that everyone in this country who is an incurable Europhile, were denying the very possibility of an EU defence force, or even an EU defence policy, as recently as a couple of years ago. Nick Clegg claimed it was not only a lie, but highly dangerous scaremongering.
If LePen gets elected in France in a few weeks time, it will collapse sooner than anyone thought it would.

I agree with you.  An EU defence force would send out many signals not the least of which would be unity. Something that isnt evident at the moment.  Not much chance of lePen getting in. Like britain france will be a divided country , those in the capital and big cities thinking the world revolves around them and the disillusioned provincial poor
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Boris interview on BBC this morning
« Reply #29 on: 28 April 2017, 09:16:30 »

What is done is done, and perhaps we are in a situation now as we were in 1937/8. Our military wound down after WW1, with the new force for modern battle, the aeroplane not up to date with mostly obsolete aircraft, and an army small enough to have almost been wiped out in one go later in 1940. Our navy did not have the right ships, with the high command still set on war using battleships, not the aircraft carriers that would be needed.  So yes, we have been here before, but I hope that behind the scenes things are happening, and certain officials are being woken up to the reality of life.



Military equipment is always restocked to fight the last war better. How else can you do this, as you have no clue what clever idea is going to come  the next time somebody pulls a trigger?


And my grandfather(a man with 7 years in the Ordnance Corps before Dunkirk) reckoned the best thing that happened to the pre-WW2 British army kit was to dump it in Northern France. I doubt the Navy was any better off.

That is all too often very true with British forces, but not with other countries. Why should that be?

But it does not have to be that way, and should not have been with Britain in the past.  In terms of the British (the creators of the aircraft carrier) failure to recognise in the 1930's that war at sea would be fought and won with the latest aircraft flying off of the most modern carriers.  The Japanese and Americans both recognised this, but the Royal Navy kept on in their dogmatic approach that the battleship was still going to be the key element and their policy with ship building reflected this. In 1939 the Royal Navy had 7 old carriers, some originally converted from being battle cruisers. Of those 5 would be sunk by 1941.  I think most know about the Japanese and their policy on using modern carriers and the latest aircraft on them; Pearl Harbour summed it up with the aircraft trumping the US battleships. The US had also recognised the vital importance of the carrier and they won the pacific sea battles to come with them.  It is always going to be a point of debate that maybe the US sacrificed some battleships at Pearl but sent their carriers out to sea on a "training exercise"  before the attack and thus escape from the battle; very controversial, yes, but it will always be debated by historians.

In terms of the RAF, since 1933 intelligence was available to the British Government that Germany was rapidly rearming, and had in particular started to create a new air force, against the Versailles Treaty of 1919, but they were advancing from having glider clubs, to full scale war planes.  Churchill repeatedly warned about this, but the government continued to happily go along with the RAF having obsolete, or not fit for modern purpose, aircraft, and not many of them. It was not until the mid 1930's that the government woke up to the need for modern advance fighters, Hurricanes and Spitfires, and started to order them in 1937/38.  But not in large quantities, even though the Luftwaffe had been built up by then to very large numbers.

The point I am making is that it is the British who seem to be reluctant to look far ahead and build a military fit to take on modern forces in the future; they are so often stuck in the past, and ignore the trends that other countries (future enemy) identify with. It is again the case today that our forces have been left behind in terms of new equipment and supply, and the government will have to race to catch up if the worst fears are realised. We live again in a very dangerous world and the government should do all that it can to belatedly re-equip, even if other "priorities" suffer.
« Last Edit: 28 April 2017, 09:20:41 by Lizzie Zoom »
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