Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Sir Tigger KC]

The Trump hysteria has gone up a few decibels again after the recent events in Charlottesville, Virginia.    Especially after his somewhat angry performance yesterday when he repeated his original assertion that both sides were to blame! 

So you have one group who were carrying out their democratic right to peaceful protest, protesting about the removal of a statue which they see as airbrushing of history and the dismantling of their history and culture.  Many of this group are armed with baseball bats, shields and automatic rifles and are undoubtably nasty, bigoted, racist types.  Given the fact they were 'tooled up' you have to wonder at their peaceful intentions. 

Then you have another group who are protesting about everything that the first group stands for and predictably it all kicks off with tragic consequences. 

The first group are variously described as Alt-right ( ), Far Right, Neo Nazis, White Supremacist, Klu Klux Klan and the second group are described as Civil Rights protesters.

I find describing the second group as Civil Rights protesters ironic given that their whole purpose in being there was to deny the first group their right to protest.    I also think that Trump has a point that both sides are to blame, as if the first group were left alone and ignored the whole event would have passed by peacefully and Charlottesville would have been another town in America that we'd never have heard of. 

I'm in no way endorsing the views of the first or second group of protesters, just trying make sense of the whole thing as this seems to be yet another case of intolerance towards the intolerant.   

[Bigron]

Quite right, Sir Tig, but isn't this typical of America, especially small town America? Taking up a stance for show, in a totally blinkered way, regardless of the truth, actuality or reason?
It has always worried me that such a basically low I.Q. nation should have such power and deadly weaponry at their disposal, controlled by generally simple-minded Presidents - not only Trump. 

Ron.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Quite right, Sir Tig, but isn't this typical of America, especially small town America? Taking up a stance for show, in a totally blinkered way, regardless of the truth, actuality or reason?
It has always worried me that such a basically low I.Q. nation should have such power and deadly weaponry at their disposal, controlled by generally simple-minded Presidents - not only Trump. 

Ron.

Sounds very much like modern, liberal lefty Britain Ron.
I disagree that the U.S. is nation of low I.Q. people. Its like all the other national stereotypes - thick Irish, Tight Scots,ignorant superior French.
That last one os completely true by the way. 
A country the size of America will by definition have just about every type of character possible. We shouldn't forget that the western way of life we all enjoy has been advanced and protected by the Americans for a very long time. 
The rednecks we all like to laugh at, retain a passionate love of freedom of the individual, and mistrust of the state, that I respect hugely, and mourn the gradual loss of across the western world.

[Bigron]

You pick the stereotypes to suit yourself, Albs! The thing about stereotypes is that if they were totally false, they wouldn't be funny; it's the element of truth, plus a little exaggeration, that makes them risible.
I've been to Ireland for a short break and, far from being thick (apart from maybe Dublin - no, they were just bonkers there!), I found everyone SO friendly and helpful.

If what you say about the Americans and I.Q. is to ring true, how do you explain Trump, both Bushes, Reagan and that self-serving womaniser, Clinton?

Ron.

[Entwood]

You pick the stereotypes to suit yourself, Albs! The thing about stereotypes is that if they were totally false, they wouldn't be funny; it's the element of truth, plus a little exaggeration, that makes them risible.
I've been to Ireland for a short break and, far from being thick (apart from maybe Dublin - no, they were just bonkers there!), I found everyone SO friendly and helpful.

If what you say about the Americans and I.Q. is to ring true, how do you explain Trump, both Bushes, Reagan and that self-serving womaniser, Clinton?

Ron.

The guys with the real brains don't enter politics .. they run real companies in the real world and make millions ... all career politicians are actually lazy gits trying to use "us" to make a living ... unfortunately because they have voted to pay themselves very well, even more useless idiots try to join them ... a self preserving dynasty of incompetents .... 

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Cant argue with that.
Reagan was a pretty good president by the way imo.
The same question could be asked of us British regarding every post Thatcher PM we have elected. Every one of them has been a complete waste of fresh air. Hence the state of the UK. 

[Sir Tigger KC]

Anyway back to Charlottesville....   

Jeremy Whine was talking about this earlier and one thing came up was should they be removing these statues and monuments? 

Broadly I think not because a) We shouldn't judge past events by todays standards as often peoples actions were perfectly acceptable by the standards of the time and b) if these reminders of the past are removed, history could be forgotten and we won't learn from historical mistakes. 

However, one lady on the show said that the US is probably the only country in the world that honours defeated rebels in this way.    Anyhow expect more troubles as the Mayors of several towns and cities in the US have said that they will remove statues and monuments honouring Confederate soldiers and events. 

[Doctor Gollum]

You could argue thst both sides felt the need to be prepared to defend their positions rather than deliberately looking for trouble...

It all kicked off when one person felt that driving a car into one of the groups would be a really good way to make a point...

It's a wonder that more people weren't killed

Whether you agree or disagree with the opinions of those involved, credit where it's due, everyone there to protest at the removal of the statue, and the implications thereof, would do so until their last breaths. The nation and its constitution were hard fought, and it is a good thing that people are passionate enough to defend it.

[Viral_Jim]

The nation and its constitution were hard fought, and it is a good thing that people are passionate enough to defend it.

I would agree with this, if only they weren't *quite* so selective about which bits they choose to defend.

[LC0112G]

Jeremy Whine was talking about this earlier and one thing came up was should they be removing these statues and monuments? 

Broadly I think not because a) We shouldn't judge past events by todays standards as often peoples actions were perfectly acceptable by the standards of the time and b) if these reminders of the past are removed, history could be forgotten and we won't learn from historical mistakes. 

It's happening here too though.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/26/historic-music-venue-colston-hall-ditches-name-shared-toxic/

And some of the most "historic" events in British history would be unacceptable today - The Dam Busters Raids, Bomber Harris, Ireland, India, Sudan, Wellington, Nelson and many more all the way back to the Crusades. Yet many of these have statues/memorials that in years to come way become controversial.

[Andy B]

Maybe we should bull doze cities like Liverpool that were built on the back if slavery .....

[Sir Tigger KC]

Trump said yesterday that they should maybe take down the statues of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson as they were slave owners.   

[Mister Rog]

Never a good idea to try and bleach history.

However one statue where removal was completely and totally justified was that of . . .

. . Michael Jackson at Fulham footbal club. It was just sooooo crap ( Sorry "Bad" for Jacko fans)

[Bigron]

Censorship in ANY form is repugnant, and is indeed the start of a slippery slope.
I know little about Colston, but all UIK slavers were facilitators; the true villains were of course the UIS plantation owners, looking for cheap labour. They are the one who got them out of the jungle (with the willing co-operation of fellow negroes, because white men dare not go into the jungle) and transhipped them to America. The ships of the day were unable to make the journey in one hop, so Liverpool and Bristol were staging posts. Some slaves jumped ship, which accounts for the ethnic mix in those cities.....
Don't use slaving as an excuse for bulldozing Liverpool - just do it! 

Ron.

[Doctor Gollum]

Censorship in ANY form is repugnant, and is indeed the start of a slippery slope.
I know little about Colston, but all UIK slavers were facilitators; the true villains were of course the UIS plantation owners, looking for cheap labour. They are the one who got them out of the jungle (with the willing co-operation of fellow negroes, because white men dare not go into the jungle) and transhipped them to America. The ships of the day were unable to make the journey in one hop, so Liverpool and Bristol were staging posts. Some slaves jumped ship, which accounts for the ethnic mix in those cities.....
Don't use slaving as an excuse for bulldozing Liverpool - just do it! 

Ron.

You might wish to recheck history...

The slave, and trade, routes went from West Africa to the Caribbean/US. Goods and slaves then followed the trade winds to Europe, with further goods trade back south to West Africa. The clockwise weather pattern of the North Atlantic is about as dependable as rain on a May bank holiday.

Besides, we weren't the only people with colonies... the Portuguese and French were just as efficient. Also, if it weren't for tribal rivalry and greed in West Africa, the whole system wouldn't have worked... as there wouldn't have been a ready supply of slaves without it... Looking at Nigeria today, not much has changed