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[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Problem is, it seems the FIA decide what is or isnt legal at any given time apparently. Which is the only explanation for Mercedes failing in their appeal against the race result.

[henryd]

It made the final race a total cluster f**k to be honest

[STEMO]

Like I said after the race, I won't be watching.

[LC0112G]

Which is the only explanation for Mercedes failing in their appeal against the race result.

Not really. Even if the appeal had succeeded, what could be done? Red Bull/Verstappen hadn't done anything illegal, so disqualifying or penalising them them wasn't an option. It seems the only way to correct the error available to the Court of Arbitration in Sport would have been to declare the race null and void. That would have left Hamilton and Verstappen equal on points, but Verstappen had more wins so would still have won the title. Therefore Mercedes had nothing to win by continuing the appeal, and arguably the damage to F1's reputation would be worse than it already is.

Doing something like saying the race should have been red flagged, or finished under the safety car may have been the correct course of action at the time, but it didn't happen. It was an error by the "referee" failing to follow the rulebook, and once it's happened there really isn't any way to unwind the error.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

From memory, F1 disputes arent allowed by the FIA to be taken to the court of arbitration of sport.
The only realistic way to resolve it if Mercedes appeal had succeeded would probably have been to have deemed the race to have finished the lap before the Williams went into the wall.
A retrospective red flag  in effect.
I think all the evidence suggests the the referee didnt just make an error. He seems to have taken his instructions from Red Bull.

[henryd]

From memory, F1 disputes arent allowed by the FIA to be taken to the court of arbitration of sport.
The only realistic way to resolve it if Mercedes appeal had succeeded would probably have been to have deemed the race to have finished the lap before the Williams went into the wall.
A retrospective red flag  in effect.
I think all the evidence suggests the the referee didnt just make an error. He seems to have taken his instructions from Red Bull.

And there lies the problem

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

The W series (single seater category for women) will be a support race at several rounds of the F1 championship this year.
One of the teams is being run by Caitlan Jenner (cue outraged Opti). 
The "sport" has disappeared down a Netflix rabbit hole.

Motor racing R.I.P.

[LC0112G]

The only realistic way to resolve it if Mercedes appeal had succeeded would probably have been to have deemed the race to have finished the lap before the Williams went into the wall.
A retrospective red flag  in effect.

Yeah, but retrospective red flags aren't in the rule book either, so is no more valid than what actually happened. I don't think anyone disagrees that it's a mess, but once the referee makes a serious error, it's often very difficult to unpick the result later on.

I don't really see what can be done to prevent a future similar incident happening either - the problem is the late safety car. The risk of a late safety car is well known to all the teams, and will always disadvantage the leading driver. I think the rules allow 3 options - Red Flag, everyone unlaps, and no-one unlaps.

If the Williams crash happens one or more laps earlier, then Massi (correctly) lets all cars un-lap, and resumes the race for one (or more) laps and we get Verstappen winning. If the crash happens one lap later, then the race finishes under the safety car and Hamilton wins. If the crash happens when it did, then I actually thing the race should have been restarted with no-unlapping. That would probably have lead to a Hamilton win, but there is a chance Verstappen would have got past the back markers to challenge Hamilton by the end of the lap.

[Varche]

What is also incredulous.is that the public pronouncement of the FIA deliberations wont be made public until a couple of days before the new season starts. Presumably that fits the FIA’s narrative i.e. we have made some changes ( extra personnel during race) , moved Masi to another dept ( warehouse stock control),  no more live petitions by team muppets, welcome to the new season.

They are letting the teams know next week. What chance of that staying secret.

Anyone know if Ch4 is showing the race a few hours later free this year? I definitely don’t feel inclined to pay DAZN for live coverage.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

The only realistic way to resolve it if Mercedes appeal had succeeded would probably have been to have deemed the race to have finished the lap before the Williams went into the wall.
A retrospective red flag  in effect.

Yeah, but retrospective red flags aren't in the rule book either, so is no more valid than what actually happened. I don't think anyone disagrees that it's a mess, but once the referee makes a serious error, it's often very difficult to unpick the result later on.

I don't really see what can be done to prevent a future similar incident happening either - the problem is the late safety car. The risk of a late safety car is well known to all the teams, and will always disadvantage the leading driver. I think the rules allow 3 options - Red Flag, everyone unlaps, and no-one unlaps.

If the Williams crash happens one or more laps earlier, then Massi (correctly) lets all cars un-lap, and resumes the race for one (or more) laps and we get Verstappen winning. If the crash happens one lap later, then the race finishes under the safety car and Hamilton wins. If the crash happens when it did, then I actually thing the race should have been restarted with no-unlapping. That would probably have lead to a Hamilton win, but there is a chance Verstappen would have got past the back markers to challenge Hamilton by the end of the lap.

He didnt do that though. He let the cars between Hamilton and Verstappen unlap themselves and didnt allow the ones behind Verstappen to themselves, thus giving Verstappen a clear run at Hamilton - just as the Red Bull team manager had told him to do.
It stinks to high heaven.
Your probably right though. To have restarted with no unlapping would have resumed the race in as fair a way as was reasonably possible in the circumstances.
Its that decision to only allow the ones between the two to unlap that makes no sense to anyone who doesnt work for Red Bull.
Verstappens first title will always be badly tainted no matter what he does in future.
Having observed him for several years though, I very much doubt he will care.

[LC0112G]

The only realistic way to resolve it if Mercedes appeal had succeeded would probably have been to have deemed the race to have finished the lap before the Williams went into the wall.
A retrospective red flag  in effect.

Yeah, but retrospective red flags aren't in the rule book either, so is no more valid than what actually happened. I don't think anyone disagrees that it's a mess, but once the referee makes a serious error, it's often very difficult to unpick the result later on.

I don't really see what can be done to prevent a future similar incident happening either - the problem is the late safety car. The risk of a late safety car is well known to all the teams, and will always disadvantage the leading driver. I think the rules allow 3 options - Red Flag, everyone unlaps, and no-one unlaps.

If the Williams crash happens one or more laps earlier, then Massi (correctly) lets all cars un-lap, and resumes the race for one (or more) laps and we get Verstappen winning. If the crash happens one lap later, then the race finishes under the safety car and Hamilton wins. If the crash happens when it did, then I actually thing the race should have been restarted with no-unlapping. That would probably have lead to a Hamilton win, but there is a chance Verstappen would have got past the back markers to challenge Hamilton by the end of the lap.

He didnt do that though. He let the cars between Hamilton and Verstappen unlap themselves and didnt allow the ones behind Verstappen to themselves, thus giving Verstappen a clear run at Hamilton - just as the Red Bull team manager had told him to do.
It stinks to high heaven.
Your probably right though. To have restarted with no unlapping would have resumed the race in as fair a way as was reasonably possible in the circumstances.
Its that decision to only allow the ones between the two to unlap that makes no sense to anyone who doesnt work for Red Bull.
Verstappens first title will always be badly tainted no matter what he does in future.
Having observed him for several years though, I very much doubt he will care.

I know. But the earlier part of the sentence says "If the Williams crash happens one or more laps earlier,". I was simply trying to say that the crash happened at a point where there was no one clear way of resolving it without someone being unhappy.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Fair enough. I think to have stuck to the letter of the rules may well have meant finishing the race under the safety car, but that wouldnt have looked good on the next series of Drive to survive.

[Kevin Wood]

Surely, if there is a situation where an intervention has to be made in the name of safety, and there's no easy option, then the one that preserves the positions the drivers have raced for is the correct one? For a sport, at any rate. I keep forgetting this is reality TV, though.

[LC0112G]

Surely, if there is a situation where an intervention has to be made in the name of safety, and there's no easy option, then the one that preserves the positions the drivers have raced for is the correct one? For a sport, at any rate. I keep forgetting this is reality TV, though.

One of the aims of the safety car is to deliberatley bunch the field up. This allows marshalls to have a large section of the track with no cars on it so they can clear it up. That's why lapped cars aren't released until after the track is supposedly clear, then one more lap behind the SC, then race back on. Marshalls aren't supposed to enter the track until the field is all bunched up, and if drivers start doing pit stops under the SC then that delays the procedure even more.

Personally I think they need to divide the circuit up into 5 or more sectors, impose pit lane speed limits (80kph) in sectors with safety concerns, but allow the racing to continue on other sections that are clear. You can't do that with a SC. Problem is you'd then need 2 or more medical teams in-case there was a second accident in another part of the track.

I don't see how you can devise a rule that is fair to all under all circumstances. Red Bull took a punt on pit stopping twice to put new tyres on Verstappen, and ultimatley that gamble paid off (admittedly with the help of a dodgy decision from Massi). Mercedes played the safe game and left Hamilton on old tyres twice in order to maintain track position, but came unstuck because of the timing of the Williams accident and the late SC. So 'fair' isn't achievable IMV.

However, if you write a rule book, then the rules should be stuck to.

[Varche]

Doesn’t bode well. Nothing from the FIA today.

Probably wait till the first safety car of the first race.

What have they been doing?