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[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

He was well known as a compulsve liar before he even became an MP. He needed to do everything possible to get rid of that trait, and not give his enemies the excuses to attack him.
He made no effort to do so at all through sheer arrogance. He thought he was cleverer than all of them anc that they would never be able to lay a glove on him.
It has cost him his career.
I used to work with a guy who always picked bare faced lying as his first option in any given situation. Even when there was no need to consider that option.
I suspect Boris is exactly the same. Its just who he is.
He served a useful purpose after the zombie Parliament, but beyond that is wholly unsuitable for public office.

[LC0112G]

And rather than acting like a twelve year old boy caught scrumping and trying to get out of it, they should have brazenly styled out Pinchergate and said to everyone Yes he was investigated a few years ago, but we gave him a second chance, but sadly Mr Pincher hadn't overcome his demons. Or they could have played on the LGBT angle something like that. 

Yes that excuse may have worked.

The problem was that he went through 4 versions of saying he didn't know anything about it over the weekend before finally admitting that he did all along. And he implicated fellow cabinet members by "misleading" them into defending him in the process. That made the cabinet members look like d1ck heads, and finally someone stood up to him (Javid and Sunak). After loosing the trust of the cabinet there weren't enough people left he could fool into trusting him and he was doomed.

He could p155 off the public, the EU, and back benchers all he liked, and get away with it because there was nothing anyone could do (untill the next GE at least). But once he lost the trust of senior cabinet members, who can fight back, then all it needed is a few of them with backbone to stick the knife in.

That's exactly what I'm getting at, if he'd had a decent comms team, they'd have come up with a good story and stuck with it.

A decent comms team might allow you to lie to the public and get away with it. But what did for Boris was lying to cabinet members sat around the table with him in Downing street. I don't believe you can use a comms team to speak to someone sitting next to you. They will smell a rat. IMHO it was the bare faced lying to cabinet members and then sending them out as cannon fodder over the weekend to repeat those lies that did for him.

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time. What you can't do is fool all of the people (even Tory MP's) all of the time.

[LC0112G]

He served a useful purpose after the zombie Parliament, but beyond that is wholly unsuitable for public office.

You're choosing to believe that the way he got us out of the "Zombie Parliament" wasn't also based on bare faced lies.

[TheBoy]

Let's face it, no matter who gets in, of any political party, we, like the rest of the world, are f**ked. So called globalisation has made sure no country can self govern while they are dependent on imports from other countries.
We cannot feed ourselves, warm ourselves or drive about in our cars without the goods and services from abroad. And abroad is in a parlous state.

Not sure if thats globalisation or our own inherent stupidity.  We keep insisting on building massive new housing estates, solar farms and unneeded railways across our farmland, making our country unable to sustain itself without importing food and other goods....

[TheBoy]

He served a useful purpose after the zombie Parliament, but beyond that is wholly unsuitable for public office.

Did he?  He seemed to monumentally cock it all up with that "ready made deal" that was anything but.

[Nick W]

Let's face it, no matter who gets in, of any political party, we, like the rest of the world, are f**ked. So called globalisation has made sure no country can self govern while they are dependent on imports from other countries.
We cannot feed ourselves, warm ourselves or drive about in our cars without the goods and services from abroad. And abroad is in a parlous state.

Not sure if thats globalisation or our own inherent stupidity.  We keep insisting on building massive new housing estates, solar farms and unneeded railways across our farmland, making our country unable to sustain itself without importing food and other goods....

you do know that Britain hasn't been self-sustaining for 200 years? When the population was about a fifth of today?

[Sir Tigger KC]

He served a useful purpose after the zombie Parliament, but beyond that is wholly unsuitable for public office.

Did he?  He seemed to monumentally cock it all up with that "ready made deal" that was anything but.

Oven ready deal was the line.   He never said it was fully cooked though. 

[Sir Tigger KC]

Let's face it, no matter who gets in, of any political party, we, like the rest of the world, are f**ked. So called globalisation has made sure no country can self govern while they are dependent on imports from other countries.
We cannot feed ourselves, warm ourselves or drive about in our cars without the goods and services from abroad. And abroad is in a parlous state.

Not sure if thats globalisation or our own inherent stupidity.  We keep insisting on building massive new housing estates, solar farms and unneeded railways across our farmland, making our country unable to sustain itself without importing food and other goods....

you do know that Britain hasn't been self-sustaining for 200 years? When the population was about a fifth of today?

Everybody knows this Nick, but we could be a lot more self sufficient than we are.

Particularly in energy.

[Sir Tigger KC]

And rather than acting like a twelve year old boy caught scrumping and trying to get out of it, they should have brazenly styled out Pinchergate and said to everyone Yes he was investigated a few years ago, but we gave him a second chance, but sadly Mr Pincher hadn't overcome his demons. Or they could have played on the LGBT angle something like that. 

Yes that excuse may have worked.

The problem was that he went through 4 versions of saying he didn't know anything about it over the weekend before finally admitting that he did all along. And he implicated fellow cabinet members by "misleading" them into defending him in the process. That made the cabinet members look like d1ck heads, and finally someone stood up to him (Javid and Sunak). After loosing the trust of the cabinet there weren't enough people left he could fool into trusting him and he was doomed.

He could p155 off the public, the EU, and back benchers all he liked, and get away with it because there was nothing anyone could do (untill the next GE at least). But once he lost the trust of senior cabinet members, who can fight back, then all it needed is a few of them with backbone to stick the knife in.

That's exactly what I'm getting at, if he'd had a decent comms team, they'd have come up with a good story and stuck with it.

A decent comms team might allow you to lie to the public and get away with it. But what did for Boris was lying to cabinet members sat around the table with him in Downing street. I don't believe you can use a comms team to speak to someone sitting next to you. They will smell a rat. IMHO it was the bare faced lying to cabinet members and then sending them out as cannon fodder over the weekend to repeat those lies that did for him.

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time. What you can't do is fool all of the people (even Tory MP's) all of the time.

You're missing my point though Malc. They didn't have to lie, that's what I'm saying.

They could have come up with an acceptable version of the truth for the public and the ministers they sent out.

How could anyone argue against an attempt to rehabilitate and save a remorseful gay gropers career? I thought that sort of thing was all the rage these days! 

[LC0112G]

Let's face it, no matter who gets in, of any political party, we, like the rest of the world, are f**ked. So called globalisation has made sure no country can self govern while they are dependent on imports from other countries.
We cannot feed ourselves, warm ourselves or drive about in our cars without the goods and services from abroad. And abroad is in a parlous state.

Not sure if thats globalisation or our own inherent stupidity.  We keep insisting on building massive new housing estates, solar farms and unneeded railways across our farmland, making our country unable to sustain itself without importing food and other goods....

you do know that Britain hasn't been self-sustaining for 200 years? When the population was about a fifth of today?

Everybody knows this Nick, but we could be a lot more self sufficient than we are.

Particularly in energy.

This is the bit I disagree with. The oil/gas that comes out of the ground is owned by Shell/Mobil/Exxon/Whoever, not the UK. Sure the govt gets to license and tax it's production, but they cannot ensure it is sold to the UK market, or even if it is, control the price. Well they could, but that would involve nationalizing it and running it as a state industry. Don't think even Corbyn proposed that.

It does reduce transport costs if the oil/gas is sold locally to where it's produced, but that isn't really a factor in the price of oil/gas. The UK produces about 8% of the oil/gas produced by Russia alone, and barely 1% of world production. There is no realistic possibility of increasing UK production to get anywhere close to being self sufficient - even if you did force the oil companies to sell to the UK only.

Nuclear is the only way out of this mess, but no-one wants a nuke power station in their own back yard.

[LC0112G]

You're missing my point though Malc. They didn't have to lie, that's what I'm saying.

They could have come up with an acceptable version of the truth for the public and the ministers they sent out.

Requires some joined up thinking though - and I just don't think that was ever in Boris' playbook. He would rather just lie and dissemble rather than try work out a way to spin a plausible version of the truth.

[Sir Tigger KC]

You're missing my point though Malc. They didn't have to lie, that's what I'm saying.

They could have come up with an acceptable version of the truth for the public and the ministers they sent out.

Requires some joined up thinking though - and I just don't think that was ever in Boris' playbook. He would rather just lie and dissemble rather than try work out a way to spin a plausible version of the truth.

Exactly. He needed a decent comms team.

As much as I despise the pair of them, if Tony Blair and Alastair Campbell had found themselves in the same situation, they would have skipped over the hurdles that have tripped Boris up. 

[Sir Tigger KC]

Let's face it, no matter who gets in, of any political party, we, like the rest of the world, are f**ked. So called globalisation has made sure no country can self govern while they are dependent on imports from other countries.
We cannot feed ourselves, warm ourselves or drive about in our cars without the goods and services from abroad. And abroad is in a parlous state.

Not sure if thats globalisation or our own inherent stupidity.  We keep insisting on building massive new housing estates, solar farms and unneeded railways across our farmland, making our country unable to sustain itself without importing food and other goods....

you do know that Britain hasn't been self-sustaining for 200 years? When the population was about a fifth of today?

Everybody knows this Nick, but we could be a lot more self sufficient than we are.

Particularly in energy.

This is the bit I disagree with. The oil/gas that comes out of the ground is owned by Shell/Mobil/Exxon/Whoever, not the UK. Sure the govt gets to license and tax it's production, but they cannot ensure it is sold to the UK market, or even if it is, control the price. Well they could, but that would involve nationalizing it and running it as a state industry. Don't think even Corbyn proposed that.

It does reduce transport costs if the oil/gas is sold locally to where it's produced, but that isn't really a factor in the price of oil/gas. The UK produces about 8% of the oil/gas produced by Russia alone, and barely 1% of world production. There is no realistic possibility of increasing UK production to get anywhere close to being self sufficient - even if you did force the oil companies to sell to the UK only.

Nuclear is the only way out of this mess, but no-one wants a nuke power station in their own back yard.

Times are changing Malc, and in the national interest we may have to contemplate things that not long ago would have been deemed completely unacceptable.

They may have to put conditions on licences such as export bans and 'strike prices'. 

[LC0112G]

Times are changing Malc, and in the national interest we may have to contemplate things that not long ago would have been deemed completely unacceptable.

They may have to put conditions on licences such as export bans and 'strike prices'. 

Flip me - a Mod is going to have to change your user name to Comrade Tigger at this rate.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

He served a useful purpose after the zombie Parliament, but beyond that is wholly unsuitable for public office.

You're choosing to believe that the way he got us out of the "Zombie Parliament" wasn't also based on bare faced lies.

To an extent it was.The Norn Irn protocol was the border down the Irish sea he told the DUP conference he would never consider doing under any circumstances.
Other than that, he took on those who were determined to overturn the biggest vote in the history of the UK and for that I applaud him.
Im under no illusions though. If he believed it would have been better for his career to overturn the vote, Im sure he would have fought for that to happen.