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[Doctor Gollum]

There's an argument for not arming them.

[Sir Tigger KC]

There's an argument for not arming them.

Is there?    Go on then....   

[Nick W]

There's an argument for not arming them.

Yes, imagine the damage Ukraine could have done if they actually had a navy

[Doctor Gollum]

There's an argument for not arming them.

Is there?    Go on then....   

The money and resources blindly thrown over to Ukraine haven't exactly returned anything constructive. Russia have gained about 20% of the country and have been largely defeated by mud and resources, or a lack thereof.

For what we have collectively spent, they should have at least held the border.

Whilst Zelenskyy has spent the last 3 years running around begging for cash and kit, no one bothered even trying to talk to Putin.

Now that has been established, they can all sit at a table and discuss the situation and hopefully draw a line under it.

Obviously all the whole Zelenskyy is running around trying to stir up panic, he's never going to be at the table to discuss anything constructive.

[TheBoy]

Without directly commenting on this situation....


Trouble is, if any negotiation involving an aggressor keeping another country's territory will not be a lasting resolution, as in a few years, they will have another pop to get some more...

History has taught us that repeatedly.

[Raeturbo]

Without directly commenting on this situation....


Trouble is, if any negotiation involving an aggressor keeping another country's territory will not be a lasting resolution, as in a few years, they will have another pop to get some more...

History has taught us that repeatedly.

                 I agree TB,   and obviously Zelensky will run around begging or doing anything else he can to save his country, what else can he do? Putin amassed his forces at the border and denied he would invade.. he didn’t until he got around 150,000 troops plus equipment there, the bloke is damaged, he’s dangerous, if he isn’t sorted out properly this time, then it’s just a matter of time until he starts again and the next time it really will be WW3.  All IMO of course.

[Sir Tigger KC]

There's an argument for not arming them.

Is there?    Go on then....   

The money and resources blindly thrown over to Ukraine haven't exactly returned anything constructive. Russia have gained about 20% of the country and have been largely defeated by mud and resources, or a lack thereof.

For what we have collectively spent, they should have at least held the border.

Whilst Zelenskyy has spent the last 3 years running around begging for cash and kit, no one bothered even trying to talk to Putin.

Now that has been established, they can all sit at a table and discuss the situation and hopefully draw a line under it.

Obviously all the whole Zelenskyy is running around trying to stir up panic, he's never going to be at the table to discuss anything constructive.

How do you work that out? 

At the time of the full scale invasion in 2022, more or less what they had from the West was some NLAW and Javelin anti tank missiles, mostly from us and the Yanks. It wasn't very much in the scheme of things, although having those weapons probably saved Kiev.  If you recall, the Germans banned the RAF from flying through their airspace as they were delivering weapons to Ukraine. So much for European unity.... 

The Russians already had troops in the Donbass, where they'd been for years (deniably of course) and without comprehensive air defences it's difficult to defend against the barrage of cruise missiles that Russia indiscriminately lobbed at them.   

As the President of Ukraine, why shouldn't Zelenskyy be at the table?     It's not for Trump to decide what happens to his country, nor to carve up a cosy deal with Putin behind his back. He can of course decide whether America continues to support Ukraine or leave them to their fate. 

[Nick W]

The money and resources blindly thrown over to Ukraine haven't exactly returned anything constructive. Russia have gained about 20% of the country and have been largely defeated by mud and resources, or a lack thereof.

For what we have collectively spent, they should have at least held the border.

Whilst Zelenskyy has spent the last 3 years running around begging for cash and kit, no one bothered even trying to talk to Putin.

Now that has been established, they can all sit at a table and discuss the situation and hopefully draw a line under it.

Obviously all the whole Zelenskyy is running around trying to stir up panic, he's never going to be at the table to discuss anything constructive.

Yes, Putin is famous for being agreeable and worth reasoning with.


Another line. Like the previous one the Russians trampled over three years ago? See above.


An agreement without the leader of the invaded country is worthless to everybody. And a country that doesn't defend itself when invaded is equally worthless.


As for whatever money has been spent, just like any other conflict between two sides with the same tech, this one will lead how militaries are built until the next one. For example it has shown that flying anything manned over a modern battlefield is a very expensive thing to do and that powerful drones are a better investment than previously thought.

[Varche]

There's an argument for not arming them.

Is there?    Go on then....   

The money and resources blindly thrown over to Ukraine haven't exactly returned anything constructive. Russia have gained about 20% of the country and have been largely defeated by mud and resources, or a lack thereof.

For what we have collectively spent, they should have at least held the border.

Whilst Zelenskyy has spent the last 3 years running around begging for cash and kit, no one bothered even trying to talk to Putin.

Now that has been established, they can all sit at a table and discuss the situation and hopefully draw a line under it.

Obviously all the whole Zelenskyy is running around trying to stir up panic, he's never going to be at the table to discuss anything constructive.

My take is the West only gave Ukraine enough support to stop Putin winning. They were frightened. My gut feeling is the West was waiting to see how it turned out. Could and should have been so different ( and cheaper) with proper support from day 1.

The only good thing to come from the conflict is to see where other nations threw their hats in.

[Olympia5776]

I think the fact that the russians are fighting for money whereas the Ukrainians are fighting for their country has to be considered .
Irrespective of what time line you place on the outcome that fact will have a huge bearing on the end game .
Big bully russia will never subjugate a country the size of Ukraine no matter what behind the door deals are made .
They're blood is in their soil .

russia never has been and never will be trusted , even more so now.

[Doctor Gollum]

I never said Zelenskyy shouldn't be at the table. He should be, but he can't claim to be trying to negotiate whilst effectively demanding that the EU provides some Natoesque super army to defend Ukraine from Russia.

If Trump gets both sides in the same room than that's got to be worth something as a starting point.

Having both publicly stated that they want to end the fighting, they need to match that statement with doings.

[STEMO]

Putin revels in his reputation of being mad Vlad. So, when he says 'We've got nuclear weapons and we'll use them if our country is in any danger', the West duly shits itself. There is no practical working out of the many reasons why he wouldn't do it, they just.........shit themselves. Game over.

[Sir Tigger KC]

I never said Zelenskyy shouldn't be at the table. He should be, but he can't claim to be trying to negotiate whilst effectively demanding that the EU provides some Natoesque super army to defend Ukraine from Russia.

If Trump gets both sides in the same room than that's got to be worth something as a starting point.

Having both publicly stated that they want to end the fighting, they need to match that statement with doings.

He has an unhinged neighbour who has committed war crimes and atrocities against the civilians during the invasion. Putin and Lavrov lied to the world about their intentions in the weeks before the invasion as they built up troops and equipment on the border and we're supposed to believe that the Russians have honourable intentions about peace? 

Any peace deal without cast iron security guarantees for Ukraine from a serious military force, be it Europe, America, NATO or a global force of some kind, will not be worth the paper it's written on. Zelenskyy knows this. 

When Russia annexed Crimea in 2014 there were warnings about appeasement which were mostly ignored, and so we are where we are.  Peace for our time?

[Raeturbo]

Indeed Steve, as I said earlier #50,  he lied time and time again on a weekly basis, we won’t do this we won’t do that, and as has been said here also, it’s him Putin,  normal Russians are just hard working hard vodka drinking normal ish folk on the whole who are not interested in the war.

[Migalot]

I think the fact that the russians are fighting for money whereas the Ukrainians are fighting for their country has to be considered .
Irrespective of what time line you place on the outcome that fact will have a huge bearing on the end game .
Big bully russia will never subjugate a country the size of Ukraine no matter what behind the door deals are made .
They're blood is in their soil .

russia never has been and never will be trusted , even more so now.

Utter BS.

Russia (Soviet Union) has successfully fought off several attempted invasions in its history, so its an ingrained feeling among the Russians to feel that the expansion of NATO to Ukraine (albeit they're not a member, but have received weapons and training-even before the current war) is literally an existential threat. That is why they attempted to avoid war through Minsk 1 and 2 and the Istanbul Agreement. It has NOTHING to do with money and everything to with protection of Russian society.

Zelensky is no longer the President of Ukraine, as his term of office has expired. It would be akin to Starmer cancelling the next GE but staying in No.10. (!!)

Zelensky has banned opposition media, banned the Orthodox Church (has arrested Priests), banned the use of Russian language (even though it's his mother tongue) and some of his ultra-right soldiers openly display swastikas – as have their vehicles.

The expansion of NATO, despite the US Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev in February 1990, provides ample evidence of who should be trusted.

Finally, if the the now-defunct Warsaw Pact had welcomed Mexico as a member, how would that have been viewed by the US?

I'm for peace, trustworthiness, freedom of speech and worship.