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[SheWhoMustNotBeOUTBID]

TB forgets he's waiting for a set of back seats.., and I have launched them already.., everyone wait for the doodlebug style sound effects.  

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Anyone who thinks that a person would have a child for the increase of possibly £10 a week in Child benefit and £40 in child tax credits.., does not live in the real world.  Children cost much more than that to bring up a week. I have tried to live on benefits and well, lets say there was a lot of baked beans on toast and air for me in our meals.  Remember u have to keep a household running as well, provide extra warmth for the little one's too.  There is this 'myth' that people regard having children as an income booster.., and I must admit it makes me a little peeved because my heart totally sank when I realised I was pregnant with my second child. Benefits DO NOT permit u to live a life of riley however many children u do or do not have.

As for having children to secure housing.  Have the writers ever lived in a small dirty single room (till I cleaned the entire floor containing 5 other units) hostel, waiting for a council place.., to be told I'd be waiting 2 years - if I was lucky.  There were people in a same sized room with five children.  It wasn't a pleasant experience.  And it went on and on and on.  U seem to think there is an abundance of social housing available .., there isn't.  And having children is not an automatic lift up the list.  I was ill, had one child and pregnant with another and still was facing a two year wait.

I know there are a lot of judgements made about people with children.., on benefits.., but I am afraid when u look at the reality of the situation of a single/multi parented family on benefits, it just doesn't bear up.  I live in a deprived estate with over 300 families on the estate and I don't know a single family that deliberately has had children to gain a house or benefits.  They would all far far rather have some self respect, a job and so on.  Without exception.  But childcare absence here makes that very difficult.

And as for the wonderful chinese system of 'fining' people who do not have a licence for children (u have to have a licence for even one child).., people still get unwanted pregnancies there and then because there is no way they can pay the fines the babies get sold.., girl babies often into a life of slavery.  Not such a wonderful system perhaps.  And of course, the one's who suffer most are the children themselves who are the least 'guilty' party.

Yes well stated SWMNBO, with many valid points!

As I have stated already not an easy subject to comment on, with many people having many different views, correct and very incorrect, depending on what "side of the track" you reside in or have done.  

I personally see people on benefits with children who are great parents and are doing what they can to improve their lot.  A few others I know have got more than enough children to cope with, on benefits and 'using' the system to their advantage.  BUT, they have a far from easy life!

If I was God perhaps I could put it right, but of course I am a mere mortal with some strong social coupled with political views, without any satisfactory answers.

[HolyCount]

Stupid or lazy people should not be allowed to procreate.

Totally agree.

Personal situation:
Have 1 12yr old and 1 30mth old here.
Childcare in wolves is non existant, so swmnbo has to stay home for the kids. does that make her lazy
if you think so, then you need to go back and think again

Just because I'm working for home now, Does that make me lazy.
I get up and do what I need to do. I'm in a privalidged situation. I can work and spend time with the family.

Far from it --- no way is child care lazy. I think the OP's point (to some extent) was that some parents do not actually CARE for the kids, who are left to be basically ferral

[TheBoy]

Stupid or lazy people should not be allowed to procreate.

Totally agree.

Personal situation:
Have 1 12yr old and 1 30mth old here.
Childcare in wolves is non existant, so swmnbo has to stay home for the kids. does that make her lazy

if you think so, then you need to go back and think again

Just because I'm working for home now, Does that make me lazy.
I get up and do what I need to do. I'm in a privalidged situation. I can work and spend time with the family.

That is entirely irrelevent to the question  :-/

The fact she is a full time mum has nothing to do with whether or not she wants to work.  Situations dictate that she has to stay at home.


So, no, staying at home to look after kids does not make her lazy.  But if circumstances were different, eg, no kids, or at school etc, and she didn't want to go to work, instead wanting to live entirely off the state, thats different.

Does that make sense, or have I just offended a load of people

[TheBoy]

TB forgets he's waiting for a set of back seats.., and I have launched them already.., everyone wait for the doodlebug style sound effects.  

Ouch!

[JueV6]

When I split from my ex wife. Council tenant. the local authority would  NOT house a single man. Although at the time I was homeless

[HolyCount]

Bottom line is that, naturally, there are good and bad apples in all walks of life and at all strata ....... look at some of these fat cat bankers -- apparently working -- obscene wages... yet a total waste of space. If they impart the same outlook to their offspring, they too are a waste of space ( and potential).

Other side of the coin, many from disadvantaged backgrounds knuckle down and work to improve their lot.

labelling is very hit and miss --- but I stand by my earlier comments, based on the actual situation in my experience and area  

[SheWhoMustNotBeOUTBID]

I do appreciate what u are saying holycount, but all I can say is I lept at the chance of starting up a business because it allowed me to get off the benefits system and still be able to live.  

I've never ever known people have children to get a house or benefits.., its hardly a rewarding occupation trying to live on benefits.., they were set at subsistence level (even that was abandoned many years ago) so its not an easy life.

However once u have children, and child care is expensive (remember u have to pay for child care in advance of receipt of salary too) it is very very difficult to get out of the hole.  With a child with special needs for whom I am constantly being called up the school/various meetings.., its more difficult but obviously thats the exception rather than the rule.

I just so wish there was more child care.., then perhaps less would get into this situation cause unfortunately once u are on benefits, the longer u are on them the less reserves u have and so it gets more and more difficult to get out of the situation.

[Jay w]

Anyone who thinks that a person would have a child for the increase of possibly £10 a week in Child benefit and £40 in child tax credits.., does not live in the real world.  Children cost much more than that to bring up a week. I have tried to live on benefits and well, lets say there was a lot of baked beans on toast and air for me in our meals.  Remember u have to keep a household running as well, provide extra warmth for the little one's too.  There is this 'myth' that people regard having children as an income booster.., and I must admit it makes me a little peeved because my heart totally sank when I realised I was pregnant with my second child. Benefits DO NOT permit u to live a life of riley however many children u do or do not have.

As for having children to secure housing.  Have the writers ever lived in a small dirty single room (till I cleaned the entire floor containing 5 other units) hostel, waiting for a council place.., to be told I'd be waiting 2 years - if I was lucky.  There were people in a same sized room with five children.  It wasn't a pleasant experience.  And it went on and on and on.  U seem to think there is an abundance of social housing available .., there isn't.  And having children is not an automatic lift up the list.  I was ill, had one child and pregnant with another and still was facing a two year wait.

I know there are a lot of judgements made about people with children.., on benefits.., but I am afraid when u look at the reality of the situation of a single/multi parented family on benefits, it just doesn't bear up.  I live in a deprived estate with over 300 families on the estate and I don't know a single family that deliberately has had children to gain a house or benefits.  They would all far far rather have some self respect, a job and so on.  Without exception.  But childcare absence here makes that very difficult.

And as for the wonderful chinese system of 'fining' people who do not have a licence for children (u have to have a licence for even one child).., people still get unwanted pregnancies there and then because there is no way they can pay the fines the babies get sold.., girl babies often into a life of slavery.  Not such a wonderful system perhaps.  And of course, the one's who suffer most are the children themselves who are the least 'guilty' party.

A lot of points you have made here are valid, and for the majority of people it is fair to say that they share your view,

I used to live in Bristol in the 80's and 90's, i knew a lot of people who came from a background that believed that the social system would support them throughout their 'working' life, however for them 'working' meant living off the social system, in school they were happy to admit that they had zero intention of getting a job and talking to a few friends it would seem a lot of them fulfilled that prophecy

I have seen girls/women get pregnant just for the purpose of gaining social housing, at that point they then realise that the flat they envisaged is in fact a grotty B&B that is full to the rafters with others in the same situation, and so the cycle starts or continues dependant upon that persons asperations/peers/upbringing/ and many other variables.

There is a social group who feel that they have a right to take from the state, this is the group that concern me, the risk of 'breeding childen of the same mindset' then creates more issues and so it snowballs to a point where the social network can't support everyone because there are more people taking that they are giving to the network.

I don't believe that everyone who uses the social system should be tarred with the same brush, given the current financial situation i would imagine that there are more and more people who will be reliant upon it, it could happen to one of us, its how people use that helps and move forward with their lives that makes them and their children different.

I could talk for hours about this as it is a subject close to my heart. The social concept is excellent, its just the freeloaders who have corrupted the system and made other people then feel bad about using it when they have a right to do so

[TheBoy]

I do appreciate what u are saying holycount, but all I can say is I lept at the chance of starting up a business because it allowed me to get off the benefits system and still be able to live.  

I've never ever known people have children to get a house or benefits.., its hardly a rewarding occupation trying to live on benefits.., they were set at subsistence level (even that was abandoned many years ago) so its not an easy life.

However once u have children, and child care is expensive (remember u have to pay for child care in advance of receipt of salary too) it is very very difficult to get out of the hole.  With a child with special needs for whom I am constantly being called up the school/various meetings.., its more difficult but obviously thats the exception rather than the rule.

I just so wish there was more child care.., then perhaps less would get into this situation cause unfortunately once u are on benefits, the longer u are on them the less reserves u have and so it gets more and more difficult to get out of the situation.

In one of my previous careers, I used to be a service 'engineer' (ie technician ), and used to go in thousands of customer's houses.

Believe me, a not insignificant number of people can make a reasonable living purely on benefits.

[HolyCount]

I do appreciate what u are saying holycount, but all I can say is I lept at the chance of starting up a business because it allowed me to get off the benefits system and still be able to live.  

I've never ever known people have children to get a house or benefits.., its hardly a rewarding occupation trying to live on benefits.., they were set at subsistence level (even that was abandoned many years ago) so its not an easy life.

However once u have children, and child care is expensive (remember u have to pay for child care in advance of receipt of salary too) it is very very difficult to get out of the hole.  With a child with special needs for whom I am constantly being called up the school/various meetings.., its more difficult but obviously thats the exception rather than the rule.

I just so wish there was more child care.., then perhaps less would get into this situation cause unfortunately once u are on benefits, the longer u are on them the less reserves u have and so it gets more and more difficult to get out of the situation.

This is so true -- the "system" does not make getting back to work at all easy. I was lucky, I guess, never got trapped. When I was made redundant with my daughter to care for, I walked into the social security office, looked around at my "waiting area mates", thought "Sod this", retched and left.  Signed on at an agency then got a permanent job within a week anyway, in which, working 30 hours (to fit around school) I was earning the princely sum of 50 pence per week over and above the benefits I was told I could get.

The difference, cash wise, was not a lot --- however, on benefits I would have had my rent and council tax paid in full, earning the extra 50 pence put me just out of qualifying ---- so I was actually £70 a week worse off!!!  Also, if unemployed, my daughters uniform would have been paid for, as well as her school meals, school trips etc !!!

[HolyCount]

Anyone who thinks that a person would have a child for the increase of possibly £10 a week in Child benefit and £40 in child tax credits.., does not live in the real world.  Children cost much more than that to bring up a week. I have tried to live on benefits and well, lets say there was a lot of baked beans on toast and air for me in our meals.  Remember u have to keep a household running as well, provide extra warmth for the little one's too.  There is this 'myth' that people regard having children as an income booster.., and I must admit it makes me a little peeved because my heart totally sank when I realised I was pregnant with my second child. Benefits DO NOT permit u to live a life of riley however many children u do or do not have.

As for having children to secure housing.  Have the writers ever lived in a small dirty single room (till I cleaned the entire floor containing 5 other units) hostel, waiting for a council place.., to be told I'd be waiting 2 years - if I was lucky.  There were people in a same sized room with five children.  It wasn't a pleasant experience.  And it went on and on and on.  U seem to think there is an abundance of social housing available .., there isn't.  And having children is not an automatic lift up the list.  I was ill, had one child and pregnant with another and still was facing a two year wait.

I know there are a lot of judgements made about people with children.., on benefits.., but I am afraid when u look at the reality of the situation of a single/multi parented family on benefits, it just doesn't bear up.  I live in a deprived estate with over 300 families on the estate and I don't know a single family that deliberately has had children to gain a house or benefits.  They would all far far rather have some self respect, a job and so on.  Without exception.  But childcare absence here makes that very difficult.

And as for the wonderful chinese system of 'fining' people who do not have a licence for children (u have to have a licence for even one child).., people still get unwanted pregnancies there and then because there is no way they can pay the fines the babies get sold.., girl babies often into a life of slavery.  Not such a wonderful system perhaps.  And of course, the one's who suffer most are the children themselves who are the least 'guilty' party.

A lot of points you have made here are valid, and for the majority of people it is fair to say that they share your view,

I used to live in Bristol in the 80's and 90's, i knew a lot of people who came from a background that believed that the social system would support them throughout their 'working' life, however for them 'working' meant living off the social system, in school they were happy to admit that they had zero intention of getting a job and talking to a few friends it would seem a lot of them fulfilled that prophecy

I have seen girls/women get pregnant just for the purpose of gaining social housing, at that point they then realise that the flat they envisaged is in fact a grotty B&B that is full to the rafters with others in the same situation, and so the cycle starts or continues dependant upon that persons asperations/peers/upbringing/ and many other variables.

There is a social group who feel that they have a right to take from the state, this is the group that concern me, the risk of 'breeding childen of the same mindset' then creates more issues and so it snowballs to a point where the social network can't support everyone because there are more people taking that they are giving to the network.

I don't believe that everyone who uses the social system should be tarred with the same brush, given the current financial situation i would imagine that there are more and more people who will be reliant upon it, it could happen to one of us, its how people use that helps and move forward with their lives that makes them and their children different.

I could talk for hours about this as it is a subject close to my heart. The social concept is excellent, its just the freeloaders who have corrupted the system and made other people then feel bad about using it when they have a right to do so

This, also, is a valid point. But the system should be ther as a crutch, not a life time aspiration. It should be totally re-hashed to be a way of getting  the support when you need it and then enabling you to get back to work, rather than making it's users dependant.

[Martin_1962]

But in the same lite as Mike F has said in the past, His son(s)/stepson(s), 1 is great the other is not so. My own step daughters 1 was as good as gold, the other, if there was a right and a wrong way, she'd choose the wrong way and then let everyone suffer the consequences

Same family (working) not a fantastic wage but better than some.
a Father that lived in the USA working for a british company good wage.

so why the difference in attitudes

give me an answer to that Martin?

Were the parents trying to do their best?

That is the point - rather than each child

[Martin_1962]

Stupid or lazy people should not be allowed to procreate.

Totally agree.

Personal situation:
Have 1 12yr old and 1 30mth old here.
Childcare in wolves is non existant, so swmnbo has to stay home for the kids. does that make her lazy

if you think so, then you need to go back and think again

Just because I'm working for home now, Does that make me lazy.
I get up and do what I need to do. I'm in a privalidged situation. I can work and spend time with the family.

My wife looks after the children so good on her of course.

Hmm two parents who care about them - lucky children

[Martin_1962]

Anyone who thinks that a person would have a child for the increase of possibly £10 a week in Child benefit and £40 in child tax credits.., does not live in the real world.  Children cost much more than that to bring up a week. I have tried to live on benefits and well, lets say there was a lot of baked beans on toast and air for me in our meals.  Remember u have to keep a household running as well, provide extra warmth for the little one's too.  There is this 'myth' that people regard having children as an income booster.., and I must admit it makes me a little peeved because my heart totally sank when I realised I was pregnant with my second child. Benefits DO NOT permit u to live a life of riley however many children u do or do not have.

As for having children to secure housing.  Have the writers ever lived in a small dirty single room (till I cleaned the entire floor containing 5 other units) hostel, waiting for a council place.., to be told I'd be waiting 2 years - if I was lucky.  There were people in a same sized room with five children.  It wasn't a pleasant experience.  And it went on and on and on.  U seem to think there is an abundance of social housing available .., there isn't.  And having children is not an automatic lift up the list.  I was ill, had one child and pregnant with another and still was facing a two year wait.

I know there are a lot of judgements made about people with children.., on benefits.., but I am afraid when u look at the reality of the situation of a single/multi parented family on benefits, it just doesn't bear up.  I live in a deprived estate with over 300 families on the estate and I don't know a single family that deliberately has had children to gain a house or benefits.  They would all far far rather have some self respect, a job and so on.  Without exception.  But childcare absence here makes that very difficult.

And as for the wonderful chinese system of 'fining' people who do not have a licence for children (u have to have a licence for even one child).., people still get unwanted pregnancies there and then because there is no way they can pay the fines the babies get sold.., girl babies often into a life of slavery.  Not such a wonderful system perhaps.  And of course, the one's who suffer most are the children themselves who are the least 'guilty' party.

A lot of points you have made here are valid, and for the majority of people it is fair to say that they share your view,

I used to live in Bristol in the 80's and 90's, i knew a lot of people who came from a background that believed that the social system would support them throughout their 'working' life, however for them 'working' meant living off the social system, in school they were happy to admit that they had zero intention of getting a job and talking to a few friends it would seem a lot of them fulfilled that prophecy

I have seen girls/women get pregnant just for the purpose of gaining social housing, at that point they then realise that the flat they envisaged is in fact a grotty B&B that is full to the rafters with others in the same situation, and so the cycle starts or continues dependant upon that persons asperations/peers/upbringing/ and many other variables.

There is a social group who feel that they have a right to take from the state, this is the group that concern me, the risk of 'breeding childen of the same mindset' then creates more issues and so it snowballs to a point where the social network can't support everyone because there are more people taking that they are giving to the network.

I don't believe that everyone who uses the social system should be tarred with the same brush, given the current financial situation i would imagine that there are more and more people who will be reliant upon it, it could happen to one of us, its how people use that helps and move forward with their lives that makes them and their children different.

I could talk for hours about this as it is a subject close to my heart. The social concept is excellent, its just the freeloaders who have corrupted the system and made other people then feel bad about using it when they have a right to do so

One of my worries