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[STMO123]

Been watching the CEO's grovelling on Capitol Hill today.

[Jay w]

This could run and run.

Actually it doesn't seem to be the case. If they don't decide very fast, these 3 (don't forget Chrysler) are gone.

The catch is - if they bail them out they are just postponing inevitable. GM, Ford and Chrysler have been so deep in c**p for so long it is a big question if anything can save them now. On one side they should be let to drown, its totaly their own fault to be where they are, but on the other side, it would affect so many people world-wide, and so many countries' economies.

But would it thought???

if the company is profitable then it gets sold, that doesn't affect its ability to remain a source of profit for its new owners.....

Those elements of the business that are not making money will of course fail, and then they will cause issues for both local and national economies but possible not the effect everyone is concerned about on a global scale.

if i seem heartless i make no apology, a business is there to survive, in order to do that IT MUST MAKE MONEY, if it doesn't then there are two options

1) Look at why and deal with it ASAP
2) If it is too late for number 1 then shut down and asset strip the good bits.....

all this bleating about is doing nothing but prolonging what could be an already long and painful death.......

[HerefordElite]

This could run and run. Opponents of the bailout (mainly Sen. Richard Shelby) have said that if the bailout is voted through then the World Trade Organisation will probably see it as unfair towards other auto makers in the US, ie Toyota, Honda etc., and try to put the blocks on it.
Now America has never taken much notice of the WTO but it's a good delaying tactic, and GM and Co may go bust while they're arguing about it.

Footnote: GM has lost $73,000,000,000 since 2004.

good, i truely hope they go bang......

I know i was negative the last time this came up....and surprise surprise i have been today but it is a business and it is making a loss as an organisation, stirp it for what its worth, sell those parts on and then scrap the parts that are junk, very much like breaking a car.....

I know that there are many many people who are employed by them, and by selling of the parts that make money the workers would still have jobs, but there will be pain for some people, and that is sad as they are the victims of piss poor management.....

and that's who should suffer as well, the CEO's and the likes of who rape huge salaries out of the business whilst it is on its knees, these are the ones who should be the first to go.

These big corporations are acting like spoilt little children, as soon as the money pot is empty they go off to their mummy or daddy (the US government) and ask for more, if it is not forthcoming then they throw a full on strop and threaten all manner of bad things.......

There are many of us who post on here who have felt pain as a result of this credit crunch, are we going to get a multimillion pound/dollar handout if we head into stormy water, are we 'dangle berries'!!!! we will be left to flounder and possibly sink, and that is why i am so dead set against them having the money

Rant over.....i'll get off me soapbox and get me coat  

And whilst we are at it....we should do the same with the NHS.....and should have done with Rolls Royce, Rover and a whole host of others.

add social bloody services to that list and all the over rather useless
public sector tossers.

i'm facing possible reduncancy in feb/march if things don't pick up and i don't see why i should keep paying my council tax to keep the workshy council lot in jobs if i'm going to suffer

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

This could run and run. Opponents of the bailout (mainly Sen. Richard Shelby) have said that if the bailout is voted through then the World Trade Organisation will probably see it as unfair towards other auto makers in the US, ie Toyota, Honda etc., and try to put the blocks on it.
Now America has never taken much notice of the WTO but it's a good delaying tactic, and GM and Co may go bust while they're arguing about it.

Footnote: GM has lost $73,000,000,000 since 2004.

Not generally happy with bail outs of any sort.....but on principle I would rather bail out Detroit than greedy bas###d bankers anyday.

[Jay w]

This could run and run. Opponents of the bailout (mainly Sen. Richard Shelby) have said that if the bailout is voted through then the World Trade Organisation will probably see it as unfair towards other auto makers in the US, ie Toyota, Honda etc., and try to put the blocks on it.
Now America has never taken much notice of the WTO but it's a good delaying tactic, and GM and Co may go bust while they're arguing about it.

Footnote: GM has lost $73,000,000,000 since 2004.

Not generally happy with bail outs of any sort.....but on principle I would rather bail out Detroit than greedy bas###d bankers anyday.

and the simplest solution is to give bugger all to anyone

[DC]

Jay W, normally I would agree with you 100%, but this is such a huge scale.

Let's imagine GM goes bust. Opel/Vauxhall are profitable but do you think anyone would be interested in taking over during the economic climate we have now? I seriously doubt. And in case of Opel shuting the door, how many people from Bosch, Hella, companies making dashboards, seats, airbags etc will be affected.

Actually it is not as simple as we both would like it to be

[Jay w]

Jay W, normally I would agree with you 100%, but this is such a huge scale.

Let's imagine GM goes bust. Opel/Vauxhall are profitable but do you think anyone would be interested in taking over during the economic climate we have now? I seriously doubt. And in case of Opel shuting the door, how many people from Bosch, Hella, companies making dashboards, seats, airbags etc will be affected.

Actually it is not as simple as we both would like it to be

the vultures are already circling......

There are about half a dozen venture capitalists who are wanting to get their teeth stuck in to the GM group.

they would literally asset strip the lot, leave what has no value and continue with the brand names that survive, albeit some of those brands will be damaged by the who debacle but if they have the will they will live to see another day.....

Yes the suppliers will hurt a bit as they are losing some, not all, of their sales stream, but again surely it is better for the hellas and bosches of this world to have 80% of a meaty pie than 100% of a stale and rotten one.

My statement about it not being a global issue was possibly a bit sweeping, there are companies, outside suppliers. who would suffer, their workforce may have to be cut back, or they might be put on reduced hours, but what happens if the money s not forthcoming and these companies go to the wall anyway, everyone loses out.....

reading the websites today it would appear that capitol hill is not happy about this as the money was earmarked for the banks, they are dragging their heel, possibly on purpose

[DC]

as I said in my first post on the topic, even if they get bailed out, it is just postponing inevitable. I have worked for a media company between 2001 and 2006 and followed with interest GM and Ford's financial position. The writting was on the wall as early as 2005 for anyone with any sense, just nobody paid attention. What I am trying to say, they are very big companies, and when they go - we will all feel it.

Vultures? Am not sure how serious they are. Cerberus has bought Chrysler but would now gladly offload it to anyone - me thinks they realized they burned their fingers with thatone. You remeber BMW taking over Rover and subsequent sale?

[albitz]

The problem is that even americans dont buy american cars these days.They have wised up to the fact that German/Jap cars are infinitely better than most of the over engineered dinosaurs that Detroit produce.
It may well have to go the same way as the British auto industry,but this is not a good time for it to happen.

[Jay w]

The problem is that even americans dont buy american cars these days.They have wised up to the fact that German/Jap cars are infinitely better than most of the over engineered dinosaurs that Detroit produce.
It may well have to go the same way as the British auto industry,but this is not a good time for it to happen.

the reality is there was never going to be a good time for this to happen, even if the economy had been good the failing of only one of these companies could have/would have sent shock waves through the industry

[JezInBrum]

The Germans bought Rover for one thing, to steal technology on the cheap. Once done they split up the company flogging off the crown jewels for a massive profit & leaving the rest to sink. I may add that the mighty BMW were about to be dragged down by Rover as well. Hence why the gave £500m to someone to take it off their hands.
From my own point of view GM has always lagged behind regarding technology. It took them untill 1996 to finally move the suspension of the Vectra to fully independant although the bigger models ie the Carlton & Senator had it years before.
You need to move ahead of the market to survive, not tag along & make changes when a car stops selling because it is out of date.
For those against a bail out look in the direction of Northern Rock & a few other banks. If they had been left to go under what would the repercussions have been for us all? And this is only the beginning for alot of people out there. The sooner things pick up the better for all of us. Unfortunately there will be casualties as always when times get hard. My sympathies to all those affected

[Parts_Monkey]

If you think about how much these big three car makers own, surely there is a case for a partial bailout combined with a restructering of Assets.

To put it really simply lets look at what The big Three own.

GM: GMC, Chevrolet, Cadillac, Buick, Oldsmobile, Hummer, Saturn, Vauxhall, Opel, Holden and Saab.

Chrysler: Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Plymouth, AMC and Eagle

Ford: Volvo, erm thats it.

Ford only have Vovo left so they may not be able to afford to sell them.

GM and especially Chrysler own loads of brands that are only sold in America and only concern Americans.  The only bits worth selling would be Vauxhall, Opel Holden and Saab although I honestly can't think of anyone who would want to bother with any of them.

Come to think of it they are all stuffed.

[Parts_Monkey]

I've just read that Ford are trying to sell Volvo to SAIC.

Oh Dear

[STMO123]

If you think about how much these big three car makers own, surely there is a case for a partial bailout combined with a restructering of Assets.

To put it really simply lets look at what The big Three own.

GM: GMC, Chevrolet, Cadillac, Buick, Oldsmobile, Hummer, Saturn, Vauxhall, Opel, Holden and Saab. Pontiac

Chrysler: Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Plymouth, AMC and Eagle

Ford: Volvo, erm thats it.

Ford only have Vovo left so they may not be able to afford to sell them.

GM and especially Chrysler own loads of brands that are only sold in America and only concern Americans.  The only bits worth selling would be Vauxhall, Opel Holden and Saab although I honestly can't think of anyone who would want to bother with any of them.

Come to think of it they are all stuffed.

[Parts_Monkey]

If you think about how much these big three car makers own, surely there is a case for a partial bailout combined with a restructering of Assets.

To put it really simply lets look at what The big Three own.

GM: GMC, Chevrolet, Cadillac, Buick, Oldsmobile, Hummer, Saturn, Vauxhall, Opel, Holden and Saab. Pontiac

Chrysler: Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Plymouth, AMC and Eagle

Ford: Volvo, erm thats it.

Ford only have Vovo left so they may not be able to afford to sell them.

GM and especially Chrysler own loads of brands that are only sold in America and only concern Americans.  The only bits worth selling would be Vauxhall, Opel Holden and Saab although I honestly can't think of anyone who would want to bother with any of them.

Come to think of it they are all stuffed.

Your right.  I forgot Ford have Mercury and Lincoln too.

I'm probably missing a couple of others on top of that