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[MikeDundee]

Despite who gets voted in, they are unable to act or do anything for another two years, on full pay and expenses (up to £255 a day ), they are only allowed top observe :-?

[Banjax]

.......

........ and this is where we should be looking to before Brussels

Makes you proud to be British!!     

i will never be british, im english and refuse to be called british as it now stands for every nationality thats come to live here.

kin ell - it's like a BNP rally in 'ere - with that logic - you won't mind if i call you German then? as it was a large Grman tribe called Angles that settled in what is now called England - or does your family go back further? to the last ice age? because thats when migrants from across europe came to settle on your country - at what point in history do you cut off the ancestry? 13000 yrs? 500yrs? or somewhere in the 1950's?

[HolyCount]

We are a mongrel nation --- doesn't matter where we came from or when, just as long as we pull together to make this island somewhere to be proud of once again!

As Bannjaxx says -- what is an Englishman ? Born in England ? Probably the nearest definition. Of English blood ?  No such thing! Aristocracy ? Err, no, most are from French, or German descent.

The nearest thing to a true Briton, I am guessing, is likely to be found in deepest Cornwall, Wales and Ireland.

[Debs.]

We are a mongrel nation --- doesn't matter where we came from or when, just as long as we pull together to make this island somewhere to be proud of once again!

As Bannjaxx says -- what is an Englishman ? Born in England ? Probably the nearest definition. Of English blood ?  No such thing! Aristocracy ? Err, no, most are from French, or German descent.

The nearest thing to a true Briton, I am guessing, is likely to be found in deepest Cornwall, Wales and Ireland.

....but Celts are supposed to be originally Bretons.

....and there is now talk of the 'dark' Welsh; a genetic-line of North African descent. 

It seems notions of Britishness are simply that; notions.....
It matters not, where we all originate, but more that 'we Britons' accept and value simple traditional British culture and values (i.e: from the time before the current 'me-me-me' generation): fairness, neighbourliness and tolerance: to name just three.

[Nickbat]

.......

........ and this is where we should be looking to before Brussels

Makes you proud to be British!!     

i will never be british, im english and refuse to be called british as it now stands for every nationality thats come to live here.

kin ell - it's like a BNP rally in 'ere - with that logic - you won't mind if i call you German then? as it was a large Grman tribe called Angles that settled in what is now called England - or does your family go back further? to the last ice age? because thats when migrants from across europe came to settle on your country - at what point in history do you cut off the ancestry? 13000 yrs? 500yrs? or somewhere in the 1950's?

Yes, I have no time for tribal talk and repatriation. That is nationalism of the worst variety. On the other hand, we do have excessively lax immigration laws (compared to Australia, US etc.). Whilst foreign labour has been and still is, to an extent, good for the economic and social well-being of the country, there comes a point when it becomes a strain on such a small island. The BNP stirs up the worst jingoism and is, quite rightly shunned by the mainstream. However, the subject of immigration should still be discussed and not be considered a taboo subject.

I think UKIP seems to hit nearer the right note with regard to a reasonable degree of patriotism, which is a good thing. It is the country as an entity that I want to be proud of again; whether there are people of other origins living here is not a problem to me and  and if they can feel the same love of their adopted country it would be a great help. Final thought is that I would not, however, welcome anyone who actively works towards changes to the UK which are not part of its natural culture or tradition (i.e Sharia Law). 

[crazyjoetavola]

We are a mongrel nation --- doesn't matter where we came from or when, just as long as we pull together to make this island somewhere to be proud of once again!
As Bannjaxx says -- what is an Englishman ? Born in England ? Probably the nearest definition. Of English blood ?  No such thing! Aristocracy ? Err, no, most are from French, or German descent.

The nearest thing to a true Briton, I am guessing, is likely to be found in deepest Cornwall, Wales and Ireland.

another six hit from HC 

[crazyjoetavola]

We are a mongrel nation --- doesn't matter where we came from or when, just as long as we pull together to make this island somewhere to be proud of once again!

As Bannjaxx says -- what is an Englishman ? Born in England ? Probably the nearest definition. Of English blood ?  No such thing! Aristocracy ? Err, no, most are from French, or German descent.

The nearest thing to a true Briton, I am guessing, is likely to be found in deepest Cornwall, Wales and Ireland.

....but Celts are supposed to be originally Bretons.

....and there is now talk of the 'dark' Welsh; a genetic-line of North African descent. 

It seems notions of Britishness are simply that; notions.....
It matters not, where we all originate, but more that 'we Britons' accept and value simple traditional British culture and values (i.e: from the time before the current 'me-me-me' generation): fairness, neighbourliness and tolerance: to name just three.

The notion of the 'dark' Welsh sounds very exotic actually Debs 


I wept at the sentiment expressed in the second part of your highlighted text Debs.  Oh were it to be like that, this land would be the better for it.   It's not really too much to ask for - is it?   :-/

[crazyjoetavola]

.......

........ and this is where we should be looking to before Brussels

Makes you proud to be British!!     

i will never be british, im english and refuse to be called british as it now stands for every nationality thats come to live here.

kin ell - it's like a BNP rally in 'ere - with that logic - you won't mind if i call you German then? as it was a large Grman tribe called Angles that settled in what is now called England - or does your family go back further? to the last ice age? because thats when migrants from across europe came to settle on your country - at what point in history do you cut off the ancestry? 13000 yrs? 500yrs? or somewhere in the 1950's?

Yes, I have no time for tribal talk and repatriation. That is nationalism of the worst variety. On the other hand, we do have excessively lax immigration laws (compared to Australia, US etc.). Whilst foreign labour has been and still is, to an extent, good for the economic and social well-being of the country, there comes a point when it becomes a strain on such a small island. The BNP stirs up the worst jingoism and is, quite rightly shunned by the mainstream. However, the subject of immigration should still be discussed and not be considered a taboo subject.

I think UKIP seems to hit nearer the right note with regard to a reasonable degree of patriotism, which is a good thing. It is the country as an entity that I want to be proud of again; whether there are people of other origins living here is not a problem to me and  and if they can feel the same love of their adopted country it would be a great help. Final thought is that I would not, however, welcome anyone who actively works towards changes to the UK which are not part of its natural culture or tradition (i.e Sharia Law). 

becomes a strain on such a small island.

.... and those tensions are beginning to show Nick


should still be discussed and not be considered a taboo subject.

........that is how we progress, through education and understanding


as an entity
 
........without that essential harmony and feeling of integration we face an uphill task



towards changes to the UK which are not part of its natural culture or tradition

..... and if that nettle is not firmly grasped Nick, respect for authority, the rights of freedom and of independance for the citizen, will be severly eroded

[Lizzie_Zoom]

After catching up on this thread, I say let's rebuild the great power of the Royal Navy with technologically advanced fleets of surface and submarine ships or boats, large enough to dominate the world. Then blockade any nations we disagree with and make sure they know the British are back with a vegence!

White British were always the superior race, and always will be.................

............sorry, just woken up, and realised it is 2009 not 1889!

Seriously, the British cannot live in the "splendid isolation" of the nineteenth century!  Whether we like it or not we are all part of God's people and now live in a global community where we affect each other in what we do more than every before.  8-) 8-) 8-)

[crazyjoetavola]

After catching up on this thread, I say let's rebuild the great power of the Royal Navy with technologically advanced fleets of surface and submarine ships or boats, large enough to dominate the world. Then blockade any nations we disagree with and make sure they know the British are back with a vegence!

White British were always the superior race, and always will be.................

............sorry, just woken up, and realised it is 2009 not 1889!

Seriously, the British cannot live in the "splendid isolation" of the nineteenth century!  Whether we like it or not we are all part of God's people and now live in a global community where we affect each other in what we do more than every before.  8-) 8-) 8-)

Seriously, the British cannot live in the "splendid isolation" of the nineteenth century


.........an undeniable fact Ms Zoom, nor should we

and now live in a global community where we affect each other in what we do more than every before.

........ that self same exposure to such global forces might well have bitten us very severly on the arse, Ms Zoom - do forgive my freedom

I do take you point, and yes I agree, we can't be too insular but I feel that we should be thinking just a wee bit more of the matters which directly relate to the wellbeing of this country and how they should be addressed without undue interference from outside forces

[Lizzie_Zoom]

After catching up on this thread, I say let's rebuild the great power of the Royal Navy with technologically advanced fleets of surface and submarine ships or boats, large enough to dominate the world. Then blockade any nations we disagree with and make sure they know the British are back with a vegence!

White British were always the superior race, and always will be.................

............sorry, just woken up, and realised it is 2009 not 1889!

Seriously, the British cannot live in the "splendid isolation" of the nineteenth century!  Whether we like it or not we are all part of God's people and now live in a global community where we affect each other in what we do more than every before.  8-) 8-) 8-)

Seriously, the British cannot live in the "splendid isolation" of the nineteenth century


.........an undeniable fact Ms Zoom, nor should we

and now live in a global community where we affect each other in what we do more than every before.

........ that self same exposure to such global forces might well have bitten us very severly on the arse, Ms Zoom - do forgive my freedom

I do take you point, and yes I agree, we can't be too insular but I feel that we should be thinking just a wee bit more of the matters which directly relate to the wellbeing of this country and how they should be addressed without undue interference from outside forces

Which ones are those Zulu? :-?

[crazyjoetavola]

After catching up on this thread, I say let's rebuild the great power of the Royal Navy with technologically advanced fleets of surface and submarine ships or boats, large enough to dominate the world. Then blockade any nations we disagree with and make sure they know the British are back with a vegence!

White British were always the superior race, and always will be.................

............sorry, just woken up, and realised it is 2009 not 1889!

Seriously, the British cannot live in the "splendid isolation" of the nineteenth century!  Whether we like it or not we are all part of God's people and now live in a global community where we affect each other in what we do more than every before.  8-) 8-) 8-)

Seriously, the British cannot live in the "splendid isolation" of the nineteenth century


.........an undeniable fact Ms Zoom, nor should we

and now live in a global community where we affect each other in what we do more than every before.

........ that self same exposure to such global forces might well have bitten us very severly on the arse, Ms Zoom - do forgive my freedom

I do take you point, and yes I agree, we can't be too insular but I feel that we should be thinking just a wee bit more of the matters which directly relate to the wellbeing of this country and how they should be addressed without undue interference from outside forces

Which ones are those Zulu? :-?

The sovereignty of our legislature, the integrity of our legal system and the right to a foreign and defense policy unimpeded by - and interfered with - unaccountable officials

We have bared our buttocks in the effort to remain a 'player' in world affairs and have been right royally thrashed for it.  I fear that we have been relegated to the depths of the 'league'. We must fix the things which are broken, the things that only a soveriegn nation can decide as those important for the wellbeing of its citizens

[Lizzie_Zoom]

After catching up on this thread, I say let's rebuild the great power of the Royal Navy with technologically advanced fleets of surface and submarine ships or boats, large enough to dominate the world. Then blockade any nations we disagree with and make sure they know the British are back with a vegence!

White British were always the superior race, and always will be.................

............sorry, just woken up, and realised it is 2009 not 1889!

Seriously, the British cannot live in the "splendid isolation" of the nineteenth century!  Whether we like it or not we are all part of God's people and now live in a global community where we affect each other in what we do more than every before.  8-) 8-) 8-)

Seriously, the British cannot live in the "splendid isolation" of the nineteenth century


.........an undeniable fact Ms Zoom, nor should we

and now live in a global community where we affect each other in what we do more than every before.

........ that self same exposure to such global forces might well have bitten us very severly on the arse, Ms Zoom - do forgive my freedom

I do take you point, and yes I agree, we can't be too insular but I feel that we should be thinking just a wee bit more of the matters which directly relate to the wellbeing of this country and how they should be addressed without undue interference from outside forces

Which ones are those Zulu? :-?

The sovereignty of our legislature, the integrity of our legal system and the right to a foreign and defense policy unimpeded by - and interfered with - unaccountable officials

We have bared our buttocks in the effort to remain a 'player' in world affairs and have been right royally thrashed for it.  I fear that we have been relegated to the depths of the 'league'. We must fix the things which are broken, the things that only a soveriegn nation can decide as those important for the wellbeing of its citizens

I can understand what you are getting at Zulu and want to  agree.  However, the cold facts are that we are part of the international community, and for our true defence we now rely greatly on the USA, as does the whole of Europe as we have all done since 1945.  This country since then has failed to keep an entirely independant military force, dependant on American satellite technology and nuclear hardware.  Foreign policy is harnessed with Nato and the United Nations, with no country, not even the great USA, being able to act independantly from all others i.e. as with Iraq, Afganistan and the Middle East.

As for the legal situation, the European Union are attempting to harminise all European law, with the European Court supreme.  The British could of course withdraw from this arrangement, but it could well mean less legal protection for the average citizen.

The progress of hundreds of years to reach a far fairer, although not perfect, world cannot and should not be reversed on some shaky belief in a past world. That 'past' in fact produced great hardship for the working class, poor welfare, diabolical education, and the constant risk of war, famine, and death.

It is only one hundred years ago when David Lloyd George and Winston Churchill argued in the House of Commons against the Conservatives for a greatly increased budget for social reforms for 1909.  The Conservatives, considering the Anglo-German naval arms race, wanted eight Dreadnought battleships; " we want eight, we can't wait", whilst Lloyd George and Churchill wanted it cut by at least two to release more funds to give social care to the poor.

Do we really want a Europe were each nation is fighting for a 'place in the sun' with expensive empires regardless of the consequences for its citizens?

In my opinion we should just go forward and work to gether for a greater Europe at peace with itself. 8-) 8-)

[crazyjoetavola]

After catching up on this thread, I say let's rebuild the great power of the Royal Navy with technologically advanced fleets of surface and submarine ships or boats, large enough to dominate the world. Then blockade any nations we disagree with and make sure they know the British are back with a vegence!

White British were always the superior race, and always will be.................

............sorry, just woken up, and realised it is 2009 not 1889!

Seriously, the British cannot live in the "splendid isolation" of the nineteenth century!  Whether we like it or not we are all part of God's people and now live in a global community where we affect each other in what we do more than every before.  8-) 8-) 8-)

Seriously, the British cannot live in the "splendid isolation" of the nineteenth century


.........an undeniable fact Ms Zoom, nor should we

and now live in a global community where we affect each other in what we do more than every before.

........ that self same exposure to such global forces might well have bitten us very severly on the arse, Ms Zoom - do forgive my freedom

I do take you point, and yes I agree, we can't be too insular but I feel that we should be thinking just a wee bit more of the matters which directly relate to the wellbeing of this country and how they should be addressed without undue interference from outside forces

Which ones are those Zulu? :-?

The sovereignty of our legislature, the integrity of our legal system and the right to a foreign and defense policy unimpeded by - and interfered with - unaccountable officials

We have bared our buttocks in the effort to remain a 'player' in world affairs and have been right royally thrashed for it.  I fear that we have been relegated to the depths of the 'league'. We must fix the things which are broken, the things that only a soveriegn nation can decide as those important for the wellbeing of its citizens

I can understand what you are getting at Zulu and want to  agree.  However, the cold facts are that we are part of the international community, and for our true defence we now rely greatly on the USA, as does the whole of Europe as we have all done since 1945.  This country since then has failed to keep an entirely independant military force, dependant on American satellite technology and nuclear hardware.  Foreign policy is harnessed with Nato and the United Nations, with no country, not even the great USA, being able to act independantly from all others i.e. as with Iraq, Afganistan and the Middle East.

As for the legal situation, the European Union are attempting to harminise all European law, with the European Court supreme.  The British could of course withdraw from this arrangement, but it could well mean less legal protection for the average citizen.

The progress of hundreds of years to reach a far fairer, although not perfect, world cannot and should not be reversed on some shaky belief in a past world. That 'past' in fact produced great hardship for the working class, poor welfare, diabolical education, and the constant risk of war, famine, and death.

It is only one hundred years ago when David Lloyd George and Winston Churchill argued in the House of Commons against the Conservatives for a greatly increased budget for social reforms for 1909.  The Conservatives, considering the Anglo-German naval arms race, wanted eight Dreadnought battleships; " we want eight, we can't wait", whilst Lloyd George and Churchill wanted it cut by at least two to release more funds to give social care to the poor.

Do we really want a Europe were each nation is fighting for a 'place in the sun' with expensive empires regardless of the consequences for its citizens?

In my opinion we should just go forward and work to gether for a greater Europe at peace with itself. 8-) 8-)

Ms Zoom I bask in the radiance of your analysis 8-)

international community, and for our true defence we now rely greatly on the USA, as does the whole of Europe as we have all done since 1945


........right on there, I was an eager young man discovering just how tenuous our position actually was when serving with B.A.O.R. at JHQ in Rheindahlen.  During those times the conventional wisdom presupposed that an attack by Warsaw pact forces would be so overwhelming that considerable ground would be surrendered, to the extent that the Channel ports would be at risk. The robust nature, in terms of numbers, of N.A.T.O. forces would have been hard pressed to contain such an assault, without recourse to battlefield nuclear weapons. (small low-yield devices) So sometimes might is not always the advantage, one might suppose.



but it could well mean less legal protection for the average citizen

....... but a bloated and unwieldy legal framework somtimes results in the average citizen being unjustly dealt with, as it's too big and tries to be all things to all people.  Yes, a lot of the leglislation draughted by Brussels has been of benefit, but a lot has been ill-considered and struggles to apply, with any degree of practical application, to the vast diversity of populace which it attempts to legislate for.

more

[crazyjoetavola]

/quote]

I can understand what you are getting at Zulu and want to  agree.  However, the cold facts are that we are part of the international community, and for our true defence we now rely greatly on the USA, as does the whole of Europe as we have all done since 1945.  This country since then has failed to keep an entirely independant military force, dependant on American satellite technology and nuclear hardware.  Foreign policy is harnessed with Nato and the United Nations, with no country, not even the great USA, being able to act independantly from all others i.e. as with Iraq, Afganistan and the Middle East.

As for the legal situation, the European Union are attempting to harminise all European law, with the European Court supreme.  The British could of course withdraw from this arrangement, but it could well mean less legal protection for the average citizen.

The progress of hundreds of years to reach a far fairer, although not perfect, world cannot and should not be reversed on some shaky belief in a past world. That 'past' in fact produced great hardship for the working class, poor welfare, diabolical education, and the constant risk of war, famine, and death.

It is only one hundred years ago when David Lloyd George and Winston Churchill argued in the House of Commons against the Conservatives for a greatly increased budget for social reforms for 1909.  The Conservatives, considering the Anglo-German naval arms race, wanted eight Dreadnought battleships; " we want eight, we can't wait", whilst Lloyd George and Churchill wanted it cut by at least two to release more funds to give social care to the poor.

Do we really want a Europe were each nation is fighting for a 'place in the sun' with expensive empires regardless of the consequences for its citizens?

In my opinion we should just go forward and work to gether for a greater Europe at peace with itself. 8-) 8-)

That 'past' in fact produced great hardship for the working class, poor welfare, diabolical education, and the constant risk of war, famine, and death

........and few lessons have been learnt Ms Zoom even with the might of this global movement

Do we really want a Europe were each nation is fighting for a 'place in the sun' with expensive empires regardless of the consequences for its citizens

....we should not, however, we should ensure that each and every one of our people comes first.

In my opinion we should just go forward and work to gether for a greater Europe at peace with itself

....... I agree but we should be willing and able to do our own housekeeping

Lord, it's great that you're back online Ms Zoom 8-) 8-)