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[Nickbat]

Of course the third world will bear the brunt of it. They always do and always will do. The rich people (that is us 1st worlders) will alwayslookafter themselves at the expense of others. I am afraid that is human nature. Even and when we have made the planet uninhabitable for current living practices the rich will ensure they have somewhere to live. Maybe that is part of the life of the earth.

it is clear that there are sufficient people out there who don't believe mankind is doing anything bad to the planet perhaps they could join the flat earthers whose numbers have apparently dwindled quite dramatically. More info at www.the flatearthsociety.org     

I assume that comment is directed towards me and others who question the AGW dogma in an effort to make us look foolish. I find it rather puerile. 


Let me make my position clear (for the umpteenth time):

I am a conservationist and an environmentalist.

Mankind does impact the environment. One need only look at deforestation, pollution, loss of habitat, building on flood plains, Green Belt development and so on. I am as concerned as anyone that these problems need to be addressed.

I cannot, and will never, apologise or feel guilty about the West's standard of living. It is better that the Third World is given the opportunity to raise its standards to ours, than for us to reduce our levels to theirs. The people of the Third World want that. So do I.
 
I cannot, and will never, accept flawed or bogus science. There are MANY very eminent scientists out there who believe that the Global Warming Cult is guilty of peddling just that.

The concentration on the bogus theme of Anthropogenic Global Warming is diverting resources from important environmental issues. Indeed many of the actions taken in the name of AGW are already having detrimental effects (e.g. deforestation for bio-fuel cultivation, loss of habitat for windfarms, mercury poisoning of Chinese workers making "green" lightbulbs, etc.).   

There is, in my view, a very real danger that the adoption of many of the global warming measures now being proposed will lead to severe economic problems in the West, and catastrophic problems in the Third World. China, meanwhile will grow ever more dominant.

There has not been a single death that can be attributed to global warming. But the world is now cooling. If the Waxman-Markey Bill passes the Senate and if the Copenhagen Summit agrees to slash economic growth (through excessive CO2 reductions), I foresee many deaths in subsequent decades through hypothermia, starvation, disease, lack of medical care and civil strife...and not just in the Third World. Do I want my kids to face that scenario? No.

We can improve air quality, we can reduce fossil fuel consumption, we can protect the lives and habitat of other species. However, we will only be able to achieve these things if human endeavour, technology and enterprise are allowed to flourish. The alternative, being proposed by the AGW followers is a return to stone age living..and death. But maybe the death of billions of humans is what they really want in the long term.

 

This is not flat-earthism. It's real science.    

[Dishevelled Den]

i shall wait with baited breath 

...the comments made by Varche lead me quite naturally to the point I was considering about this debate and the third World and Africa in particular.

I have been concerned for some time about the unduly judgmental position taken by several aid agencies, Oxfam included, about how the apparent change in climate - caused by the self-interest of the West in general - has had such a negative impact on the ability of these countries to function.

In my view this can be considered to be emotional blackmail as there seems to be little problem for the leaders and elite of many of these countries having a very acceptable lifestyle.


I would think it more productive for the aid agencies to start questioning the incompetent and self-serving leaderships concerned rather than take the easy path of castigating those of us in the West whom are trying to get by with what we presently have.

Mandela, Mbeki, Mugabe and Moi to name but a few did a lot to insure that the elite and organs of government were taken care of while seeming blind the plight of their own people.

The Third World should be looking to ensure that the leadership they have in place is of the highest calibre so that real progress can be made in the fight against poverty and deprivation.  Furthermore, the self-righteous aid agencies should also be making more effort to ensure that this goal is being realised rather than engaging in this disingenuous attempt to send we in the West on a guilt-trip over the plight of those in question.

[albitz]

Imo,most of the Charities/aid agencies connected with Africa are run by people who have made a career out of the job,and arent particularily interested in the problems of Africa,they seem to be mostly old fashioned lefties who have never functioned in the real world, rather like their friends in Nu Lie bore.

[Banjax]

Of course the third world will bear the brunt of it. They always do and always will do. The rich people (that is us 1st worlders) will alwayslookafter themselves at the expense of others. I am afraid that is human nature. Even and when we have made the planet uninhabitable for current living practices the rich will ensure they have somewhere to live. Maybe that is part of the life of the earth.

it is clear that there are sufficient people out there who don't believe mankind is doing anything bad to the planet perhaps they could join the flat earthers whose numbers have apparently dwindled quite dramatically. More info at www.the flatearthsociety.org     

I assume that comment is directed towards me and others who question the AGW dogma in an effort to make us look foolish. I find it rather puerile. 


Let me make my position clear (for the umpteenth time):

I am a conservationist and an environmentalist.

Mankind does impact the environment. One need only look at deforestation, pollution, loss of habitat, building on flood plains, Green Belt development and so on. I am as concerned as anyone that these problems need to be addressed.

I cannot, and will never, apologise or feel guilty about the West's standard of living. It is better that the Third World is given the opportunity to raise its standards to ours, than for us to reduce our levels to theirs. The people of the Third World want that. So do I.
 
I cannot, and will never, accept flawed or bogus science. There are MANY very eminent scientists out there who believe that the Global Warming Cult is guilty of peddling just that.

The concentration on the bogus theme of Anthropogenic Global Warming is diverting resources from important environmental issues. Indeed many of the actions taken in the name of AGW are already having detrimental effects (e.g. deforestation for bio-fuel cultivation, loss of habitat for windfarms, mercury poisoning of Chinese workers making "green" lightbulbs, etc.).   

There is, in my view, a very real danger that the adoption of many of the global warming measures now being proposed will lead to severe economic problems in the West, and catastrophic problems in the Third World. China, meanwhile will grow ever more dominant.

There has not been a single death that can be attributed to global warming. But the world is now cooling. If the Waxman-Markey Bill passes the Senate and if the Copenhagen Summit agrees to slash economic growth (through excessive CO2 reductions), I foresee many deaths in subsequent decades through hypothermia, starvation, disease, lack of medical care and civil strife...and not just in the Third World. Do I want my kids to face that scenario? No.

We can improve air quality, we can reduce fossil fuel consumption, we can protect the lives and habitat of other species. However, we will only be able to achieve these things if human endeavour, technology and enterprise are allowed to flourish. The alternative, being proposed by the AGW followers is a return to stone age living..and death. But maybe the death of billions of humans is what they really want in the long term.

 

This is not flat-earthism. It's real science.    

Nickbat - i admire your passion and conviction on this, but are you seriously suggesting that we give up this folly and train all our guns on ending poverty, sickness and disease - using all out technological might to clean the air, irrigate the fields and reduce our fossil fuel consumption?

You know what we do with all that knowledge and science? we build golf courses in deserts, ski resorts in Dubai, artificial beaches in Japan, slightly smaller, lighter mobile phones. Slightly faster computers, more choices of deodorant and washing powder.

It will not, based on all the evidence of my own eyes, be used for anything other than to make us in the West feel incrementally better about ourselves and to hell with the consequences. If I was wrong, more would have been done by now.

We can put a man on the moon but people still starve? Theres the proof mate 




p.s. on a side note there was never a point in our history when anyone seriously believed the earth to be flat (thanks to the Q.I. elves)

[LJay]

I've considered long and hard the arguments around climate change and the issues in the third world! Since it would now appear to be less about these issues and more about suppressing peoples free will, I now bury my head in the sand and ignore them!
I like driving my V6 too fast and leaving all of my appliances on standby and resent being told otherwise! Any small change that I make is pointless when the issues are political and ignored by the likes of china anyway!
I also object to the amount of time and money spent on space exploration, it would be much better spent on helping out this planet, think how many people in the third world could be helped to improve their lives with what it costs! If we found another planet to destroy it would only be for the elite and of no benefit to ordinary folk!

Scare mongering just turns me into an ostrich!

[Stevie-blunder]

Oxfam knocked my door the other day collecting clothes for Africa, I said if they could fit into mine they are not starving !! 

[Dishevelled Den]

 

There is, in my view, a very real danger that the adoption of many of the global warming measures now being proposed will lead to severe economic problems in the West, and catastrophic problems in the Third World.


The alternative, being proposed by the AGW followers is a return to stone age living.    

...I think that these points culled from your earlier post bear repeating as few seem to see the potential in such  scenarios being realised.

[Banjax]

I've considered long and hard the arguments around climate change and the issues in the third world! Since it would now appear to be less about these issues and more about suppressing peoples free will, I now bury my head in the sand and ignore them!
I like driving my V6 too fast and leaving all of my appliances on standby and resent being told otherwise! Any small change that I make is pointless when the issues are political and ignored by the likes of china anyway!
I also object to the amount of time and money spent on space exploration, it would be much better spent on helping out this planet, think how many people in the third world could be helped to improve their lives with what it costs! If we found another planet to destroy it would only be for the elite and of no benefit to ordinary folk!

Scare mongering just turns me into an ostrich!

you've hit the nail on the head Ljay 

we're not going to do anything to seriously change, life will go on with the majority of the planet scratching in the dirt to provide the west with food, clothes and gadgets. we really suck as a species when you look at the big picture 

[Dishevelled Den]

you've hit the nail on the head Ljay 

we're not going to do anything to seriously change, life will go on with the majority of the planet scratching in the dirt to provide the west with food, clothes and gadgets. we really suck as a species when you look at the big picture 

...where is this happening bj?

[LJay]

you've hit the nail on the head Ljay 

we're not going to do anything to seriously change, life will go on with the majority of the planet scratching in the dirt to provide the west with food, clothes and gadgets. we really suck as a species when you look at the big picture 

...where is this happening bj?

I think hes talking metaphorically, though I can see where hes coming from!

[Dishevelled Den]

I think hes talking metaphorically, though I can see where hes coming from!

... ...he might well be Lj but such generalisations are routinely used as a cudgel to threaten the moral content of those of us who happen to inhabit the consumer society that prevails in the West.

[Banjax]

you've hit the nail on the head Ljay 

we're not going to do anything to seriously change, life will go on with the majority of the planet scratching in the dirt to provide the west with food, clothes and gadgets. we really suck as a species when you look at the big picture 

...where is this happening bj?

you don't have to look too far to see the west exploiting the third world, everything from trainers made in sweatshops to diamonds mined by children zulu 

[albitz]

Possibly the most difficult hurdle to overcome when trying to help alleviate the problems in African countries is the governments are totally corrupt ,so when aid is given it doesnt get to the people who need it but instead goes into the coffers of the ruling elites.Until this can be solved the peoples of the countries concerned will probably carry on living in dire poverty indefinetely.
Capitalism and "climate change" cant be blamed for that.

[Banjax]

Possibly the most difficult hurdle to overcome when trying to help alleviate the problems in African countries is the governments are totally corrupt ,so when aid is given it doesnt get to the people who need it but instead goes into the coffers of the ruling elites.Until this can be solved the peoples of the countries concerned will probably carry on living in dire poverty indefinetely.
Capitalism and "climate change" cant be blamed for that.

i think we've opened another can of worms! 

[LJay]

Possibly the most difficult hurdle to overcome when trying to help alleviate the problems in African countries is the governments are totally corrupt ,so when aid is given it doesnt get to the people who need it but instead goes into the coffers of the ruling elites.Until this can be solved the peoples of the countries concerned will probably carry on living in dire poverty indefinetely.
Capitalism and "climate change" cant be blamed for that.

We saw this first hand in mexico, the tourist areas were all state of the art, more advanced than here and yet the people were living in shanty towns just streets away! The tour guides kept telling us how rich their country was but how poor the people were! politics again!