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[Nickbat]

  

Nickbat - i admire your passion and conviction on this, but are you seriously suggesting that we give up this folly and train all our guns on ending poverty, sickness and disease - using all out technological might to clean the air, irrigate the fields and reduce our fossil fuel consumption?

You know what we do with all that knowledge and science? we build golf courses in deserts, ski resorts in Dubai, artificial beaches in Japan, slightly smaller, lighter mobile phones. Slightly faster computers, more choices of deodorant and washing powder.

It will not, based on all the evidence of my own eyes, be used for anything other than to make us in the West feel incrementally better about ourselves and to hell with the consequences. If I was wrong, more would have been done by now.

We can put a man on the moon but people still starve? Theres the proof mate 




p.s. on a side note there was never a point in our history when anyone seriously believed the earth to be flat (thanks to the Q.I. elves)

Highlighted text 1.

Yes, I am suggesting precisely that. Your choice of example (ski resorts in Dubai, etc) is a red herring. Medical advances mean that what was fatal four decades ago can now be cured by a day in hospital. We have a longer life expectancy than at any time in the past. We have cleaner air in our cities than we did a few decades ago. Our rivers are cleaner. Our beaches are cleaner. Clearly, more can be done, and more will be done. We are more aware of our fellow species, than ever before. technological breakthroughs are enabling us to monitor and help endangered species. Our transportation is cleaner and more efficient than ever before (compare a 707's efficiency, exhaust pollution and noise with that of a 777). Consider how microprocessors have improved every aspect of our lives. Technology is on-going, but it must be financed and encouraged. Society demands improvements. The 21st century society will demand more. Technology will provide, if permitted.

Highlighted text 2.

Due entirely to politics (see Zulu's recent post). Starvation is a problem in the Third World, not in the West. Zimbabwe used to be the "Bread Basket of Africa". It is now the "Basket Case of Africa". Why? Politics, nowt else.

Remember the EU's grain/milk/butter mountains? All a distant memory now as they pay farmers not to produce.

We can easily feed the world, and more. That we do not do so, is a question you need to put to the politicians. 

[Dishevelled Den]

you don't have to look too far to see the west exploiting the third world, everything from trainers made in sweatshops to diamonds mined by children zulu 

....we're getting to the point now bj - why are the governments of those countries in question allowing this to happen?  Are they not as culpable as those in the West who would seek to employ such exploitation?

[LJay]

you don't have to look too far to see the west exploiting the third world, everything from trainers made in sweatshops to diamonds mined by children zulu 

....we're getting to the point now bj - why are the governments of those countries in question allowing this to happen?  Are they not as culpable as those in the West who would seek to employ such exploitation?

Because corruption speaks louder than conscience! Always has, always will!
You either need to be corrupt to gain power or be corrupted by the power, doesn't seem to be much difference in any society, rich or poor!

[Banjax]

  

Nickbat - i admire your passion and conviction on this, but are you seriously suggesting that we give up this folly and train all our guns on ending poverty, sickness and disease - using all out technological might to clean the air, irrigate the fields and reduce our fossil fuel consumption?

You know what we do with all that knowledge and science? we build golf courses in deserts, ski resorts in Dubai, artificial beaches in Japan, slightly smaller, lighter mobile phones. Slightly faster computers, more choices of deodorant and washing powder.

It will not, based on all the evidence of my own eyes, be used for anything other than to make us in the West feel incrementally better about ourselves and to hell with the consequences. If I was wrong, more would have been done by now.

We can put a man on the moon but people still starve? Theres the proof mate 




p.s. on a side note there was never a point in our history when anyone seriously believed the earth to be flat (thanks to the Q.I. elves)

Highlighted text 1.

Yes, I am suggesting precisely that. Your choice of example (ski resorts in Dubai, etc) is a red herring. Medical advances mean that what was fatal four decades ago can now be cured by a day in hospital. We have a longer life expectancy taht at any time in the past. We have cleaner air in our cities than we did a few decades ago. Our rivers are cleaner. Our beaches are cleaner. Clearly, more can be done, and more will be done. We are more aware of our fellow species, than ever before. technological breakthroughs are enabling us to monitor and help endangered species. Our transportation is cleaner and more efficient than ever before (compare a 707's efficiency, exhaust pollution and noise with that of a 777). Consider how microprocessors have improved every aspect of our lives. Technology is on-going, but it must be financed and encouraged. Society demands improvements. The 21st century society will demand more. Technology will provide, if permitted.

Highlighted text 2.

Due entirely to politics (see Zulu's recent post). Starvation is a problem in the Third World, not in the West. Zimbabwe used to be the "Bread Basket of Africa". It is now the "Basket Case of Africa". Why? Politics, nowt else.

Remember the EU's grain/milk/butter mountains? All a distant memory now as they pay farmers not to produce.

We can easily feed the world, and more. That we do not do so, is a question you need to put to the politicians. 

politicians only react to the public consensus, we in the west as taxpayers and voters could change it almost overnight - if their was a will  :-/

[Brick Tamland]

I'm with nickbat on this one.

Maybe you've seen the documentary "Great global warming swindle" I havent heard it mentioned here but it completly shoots down every argument in support of the THEORY of AGW. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TqqWJugXzs

Among the group of people that think for themselves or "skeptics" include the co-founder of greenpeace and founder of the wheather channel in the US.

And the difference in AGW propaganda between Britain and here is taking the p***. AGW is just another bandwagon for the PC brigade, its so easy to be labled a racist these days, similarly it is just as easy to be called a holocost denying, flat eather when just thinking for ones self in not believing in man made global warming.

[Banjax]

you don't have to look too far to see the west exploiting the third world, everything from trainers made in sweatshops to diamonds mined by children zulu 

....we're getting to the point now bj - why are the governments of those countries in question allowing this to happen?  Are they not as culpable as those in the West who would seek to employ such exploitation?

Because corruption speaks louder than conscience! Always has, always will!
You either need to be corrupt to gain power or be corrupted by the power, doesn't seem to be much difference in any society, rich or poor!

agree totally Ljay 

what do we do? wash our hands of the problems in the third world? we seem to be quick to defend the peoples of Iraq and Afghanistan who find themselves under the boot of tyranny. or is it that corporations in the west find cosy arrangements with those in power to exploit the masses - same pattern over and over.
we only intervene if it benefits us and do nothing when it suits us 

[Dishevelled Den]

Because corruption speaks louder than conscience! Always has, always will!
You either need to be corrupt to gain power or be corrupted by the power, doesn't seem to be much difference in any society, rich or poor!

.....and those assertions are conveniently disregarded by the very agencies we are speaking of as they try to place the blame on everyone but those in power in the very countries that have the most deprived populations.

[LJay]

you don't have to look too far to see the west exploiting the third world, everything from trainers made in sweatshops to diamonds mined by children zulu 

....we're getting to the point now bj - why are the governments of those countries in question allowing this to happen?  Are they not as culpable as those in the West who would seek to employ such exploitation?

Because corruption speaks louder than conscience! Always has, always will!
You either need to be corrupt to gain power or be corrupted by the power, doesn't seem to be much difference in any society, rich or poor!

agree totally Ljay 

what do we do? wash our hands of the problems in the third world? we seem to be quick to defend the peoples of Iraq and Afghanistan who find themselves under the boot of tyranny. or is it that corporations in the west find cosy arrangements with those in power to exploit the masses - same pattern over and over.
we only intervene if it benefits us and do nothing when it suits us 

Sadly true! Don't even know how you would go about changing the pattern!
I have given up trying to work out truth from lies and chosen to ignore it all for the sake of my sanity!
I worry for my childrens future but can do nothing to influence change, so live and let live!

[Nickbat]

I'm with nickbat on this one.

Maybe you've seen the documentary "Great global warming swindle" I havent heard it mentioned here but it completly shoots down every argument in support of the THEORY of AGW. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TqqWJugXzs

Among the group of people that think for themselves or "skeptics" include the co-founder of greenpeace and founder of the wheather channel in the US.

And the difference in AGW propaganda between Britain and here is taking the p***. AGW is just another bandwagon for the PC brigade, its so easy to be labled a racist these days, similarly it is just as easy to be called a holocost denying, flat eather when just thinking for ones self in not believing in man made global warming.

Thanks, Brick! An ally from the Emerald Isle - I'm honoured. I'm hoping that two of your compatriots (Ann McElhinney & Phelim McAleer) will do a lot for our cause this autumn: 

http://www.noteviljustwrong.com/

Pass me another Guinness!

[Dishevelled Den]

politicians only react to the public consensus, we in the west as taxpayers and voters could change it almost overnight - if their was a will  :-/

I don't see how it can be reasonably suggested that any proposal in this regard could gain realistic traction.

The problem lies not wholly in the self-interest exhibited by the West but more squarely with the incompetent and corrupt regimes in the very countries suffering in the way being discussed.

[LJay]

I'm with nickbat on this one.

Maybe you've seen the documentary "Great global warming swindle" I havent heard it mentioned here but it completly shoots down every argument in support of the THEORY of AGW. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TqqWJugXzs

Among the group of people that think for themselves or "skeptics" include the co-founder of greenpeace and founder of the wheather channel in the US.

And the difference in AGW propaganda between Britain and here is taking the p***. AGW is just another bandwagon for the PC brigade, its so easy to be labled a racist these days, similarly it is just as easy to be called a holocost denying, flat eather when just thinking for ones self in not believing in man made global warming.

Thanks, Brick! An ally from the Emerald Isle - I'm honoured. I'm hoping that two of your compatriots (Ann McElhinney & Phelim McAleer) will do a lot for our cause this autumn: 

http://www.noteviljustwrong.com/

Pass me another Guinness!

It shouldn't come down to allies/enemies! If we are divided amongst ourselves corruption is always going to win!
The way I see it, we need to unite ourselves to stamp out corruption and then tackle world issues through honest eyes!
Not going to happen I know!

[Brick Tamland]

I'm with nickbat on this one.

Maybe you've seen the documentary "Great global warming swindle" I havent heard it mentioned here but it completly shoots down every argument in support of the THEORY of AGW. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TqqWJugXzs

Among the group of people that think for themselves or "skeptics" include the co-founder of greenpeace and founder of the wheather channel in the US.

And the difference in AGW propaganda between Britain and here is taking the p***. AGW is just another bandwagon for the PC brigade, its so easy to be labled a racist these days, similarly it is just as easy to be called a holocost denying, flat eather when just thinking for ones self in not believing in man made global warming.

Thanks, Brick! An ally from the Emerald Isle - I'm honoured. I'm hoping that two of your compatriots (Ann McElhinney & Phelim McAleer) will do a lot for our cause this autumn: 

http://www.noteviljustwrong.com/

Pass me another Guinness!

I wonder will they win the nobel peace prize

[Dishevelled Den]

Kudos to bannjaxx - you're holding your own rightly there my son 8-)

[Banjax]

politicians only react to the public consensus, we in the west as taxpayers and voters could change it almost overnight - if their was a will  :-/

I don't see how it can be reasonably suggested that any proposal in this regard could gain realistic traction.

The problem lies not wholly in the self-interest exhibited by the West but more squarely with the incompetent and corrupt regimes in the very countries suffering in the way being discussed.

you're right zulu - we'd never vote for the guy who made ending world poverty a priority - what about our taxes? our schools? our demands and needs? sadly we almost always put ourselves first - i'm no different, but i can dream can't i? 

[LJay]

politicians only react to the public consensus, we in the west as taxpayers and voters could change it almost overnight - if their was a will  :-/

I don't see how it can be reasonably suggested that any proposal in this regard could gain realistic traction.

The problem lies not wholly in the self-interest exhibited by the West but more squarely with the incompetent and corrupt regimes in the very countries suffering in the way being discussed.

you're right zulu - we'd never vote for the guy who made ending world poverty a priority - what about our taxes? our schools? our demands and needs? sadly we almost always put ourselves first - i'm no different, but i can dream can't i? 

Hold on!!! Did you two just agree??? pick me up off the floor would you!!!! was getting my crash hat ready!!!