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Author Topic: Let's not make a fuss  (Read 2652 times)

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Kevin Wood

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Re: Let's not make a fuss
« Reply #30 on: 29 January 2010, 09:57:24 »

Say what you like about the Prius (as Zulu77 alludes to, both the driving experience and the looks are probably a "love or hate" thing) but it does return the fuel economy - in the right scenario.

I had an extended taxi ride across Milan in rush hour in a Prius a year or so back.

We are talking the stereotypical Italian taxi driver. Boolean throttle and brake controls, taking off from every set of lights flat out despite that fact that the next set of lights 300 yds up the road are clearly just turning red, etc. etc.

When I got into the car I saw the average fuel consumption figure (in l/100km, of course) and it seemed infeasibly low. Spent the first half of the journey doing mental arithmetic and working out that we were talking high 50's verging on 60MPG. :y

Once I'd worked that out, I remember sniggering before taking a second look at the average, thinking that this traffic and driving style would have done it no good. It had actually improved. :o

I doubt any conventional petrol car would have bettered 30 MPG on that run. An Omega, although a bigger car, would have been doing about 15MPG without a doubt.

Comparing it to a conventional car on the motorway is pointless. They are both propelling themselves exclusively by petrol engine. Both engines are operating in a reasonably efficient regime but the Prius is hobbled by a bootload of batteries and electric motors.

Where hybrids really come into their own is in city traffic where they avoid operating the petrol engine in its most hideously inefficient mode.

I don't do any city driving but if I did have to on a daily basis, I think they'd be more worthy of my consideration. The only thing that would worry me is long term maintenance costs, bearing in mind I tend to buy cars once depreciation has made them better value for money. No battery technology has yet produced batteries that last terribly long and replacing a Hybrid's batteries must be eye-wateringly expensive.

Kevin
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Lazydocker

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Re: Let's not make a fuss
« Reply #31 on: 29 January 2010, 10:03:07 »

Well said Kevin... I very rarely go into town, never mind stop-start city driving, so see little point in a Hybrid.

If I were to go along the hybrid route I think I'd be looking towards Lexus though ::) :y :y
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Kevin Wood

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Re: Let's not make a fuss
« Reply #32 on: 29 January 2010, 10:19:27 »

Quote
If I were to go along the hybrid route I think I'd be looking towards Lexus though ::) :y :y

I don't know. :-/

In some respects, if I was doing mostly city driving (which I'd have to be, to consider one) I think something like a Prius would be adequate.

I'm not sure I see the point of taking a guzzler / SUV and turning it into something with economy that could be achieved simply by buying a more modest car. If I were to have a Hybrid with all that entails I would probably want no compromise on the fuel economy and have an Omega (or similar) for long trips.

Besides, whenever I've got behind the wheel of a Lexus I've wished I was only about 5 foot 6 tall. ;D

Kevin
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Lazydocker

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Re: Let's not make a fuss
« Reply #33 on: 29 January 2010, 10:21:51 »

Quote
Quote
If I were to go along the hybrid route I think I'd be looking towards Lexus though ::) :y :y

I don't know. :-/

In some respects, if I was doing mostly city driving (which I'd have to be, to consider one) I think something like a Prius would be adequate.

I'm not sure I see the point of taking a guzzler / SUV and turning it into something with economy that could be achieved simply by buying a more modest car. If I were to have a Hybrid with all that entails I would probably want no compromise on the fuel economy and have an Omega (or similar) for long trips.

Besides, whenever I've got behind the wheel of a Lexus I've wished I was only about 5 foot 6 tall. ;D

Kevin

Hmmm... Lots of people have made similar comments in the past. I may have a problem with one then ::) ::)
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Re: Let's not make a fuss
« Reply #34 on: 29 January 2010, 10:26:21 »

Quote
Hmmm... Lots of people have made similar comments in the past. I may have a problem with one then ::) ::)

I was seriously considering an IS200 instead of an Omega, until I took a look at how little space there is inside one. Even the larger models don't seem to have much legroom.

I don't think you can get any better than an Omega in terms of space in the passenger compartment.

Kevin
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Chris_H

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Re: Let's not make a fuss
« Reply #35 on: 29 January 2010, 10:26:56 »

Quote
Say what you like about the Prius (as Zulu77 alludes to, both the driving experience and the looks are probably a "love or hate" thing) but it does return the fuel economy - in the right scenario.

I had an extended taxi ride across Milan in rush hour in a Prius a year or so back.

We are talking the stereotypical Italian taxi driver. Boolean throttle and brake controls, taking off from every set of lights flat out despite that fact that the next set of lights 300 yds up the road are clearly just turning red, etc. etc.

When I got into the car I saw the average fuel consumption figure (in l/100km, of course) and it seemed infeasibly low. Spent the first half of the journey doing mental arithmetic and working out that we were talking high 50's verging on 60MPG. :y

Once I'd worked that out, I remember sniggering before taking a second look at the average, thinking that this traffic and driving style would have done it no good. It had actually improved. :o

I doubt any conventional petrol car would have bettered 30 MPG on that run. An Omega, although a bigger car, would have been doing about 15MPG without a doubt.

Comparing it to a conventional car on the motorway is pointless. They are both propelling themselves exclusively by petrol engine. Both engines are operating in a reasonably efficient regime but the Prius is hobbled by a bootload of batteries and electric motors.

Where hybrids really come into their own is in city traffic where they avoid operating the petrol engine in its most hideously inefficient mode.

I don't do any city driving but if I did have to on a daily basis, I think they'd be more worthy of my consideration. The only thing that would worry me is long term maintenance costs, bearing in mind I tend to buy cars once depreciation has made them better value for money. No battery technology has yet produced batteries that last terribly long and replacing a Hybrid's batteries must be eye-wateringly expensive.

Kevin
I wonder if the consumption figures took into consideration the level of charge remaining in the batteries or was just petrol consumption.  It would be far too easy to give false real-world figures if at the end of the journey more energy had to be added to restore the original amount.
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Kevin Wood

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Re: Let's not make a fuss
« Reply #36 on: 29 January 2010, 10:39:12 »

Quote
I wonder if the consumption figures took into consideration the level of charge remaining in the batteries or was just petrol consumption.  It would be far too easy to give false real-world figures if at the end of the journey more energy had to be added to restore the original amount.

True. There is always going to be some energy in the batteries and that will offset the fuel consumption at times - in either direction.

Kevin
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Dishevelled Den

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Re: Let's not make a fuss
« Reply #37 on: 29 January 2010, 11:11:15 »

Quote


I wonder if the consumption figures took into consideration the level of charge remaining in the batteries or was just petrol consumption.  It would be far too easy to give false real-world figures if at the end of the journey more energy had to be added to restore the original amount.


The hybrid system is quite sophisticated and the blending of the two means of propulsion seems responsible for the consumptiion figures - as well stop/start, small (1500 cc) engine and light aerodynamic body of course.

The traction battery provides power not only for electric only driving (in a very modest way) but also assists the petrol engine via the electric motor when the loading conditions are favourable.  This large battery is continously charged when the petrol engine is running/powering the vehicle or on the over-run/braking.

This combination of factors can achive very respectable fuel consumption figures which in my case, varies betwen 50 mpg in the winter and 60 mpg in the summer.  That's with a normal style of driving - making due progress and so on - but I will say that the more one adopts a style to suit the car the more consistant the consumption figures will be - and that doesn't mean tootling around getting in everyone's way.

The traction battery is under manufacturers warranty for eight years - which is just as well as it's expensive to replace as Kevin rightly says although failures are not that common according the disciples on the Prius Forum at least - even though the early cars have been around since 1999 (in the UK).
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cruisetopoland

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Re: Let's not make a fuss
« Reply #38 on: 29 January 2010, 12:21:18 »

Used in London, in the C charge, they make more sense, but only due to the fact the government is daft and does not allow other cars to travel in free which have **better** real world mpg and **low emissions ** (eg C1, 107, Aygo).

Above 27mph, a modern diesel is better in every way, including ecologically-especially if you take into account,actual fuel used, usable life before becoming uneconomical to repair and the huge amount of mercury etc (transported halfway around the world during manufacture) used in construction etc etc etc.

It just fits with the "clueless green movement" and is trendy with the government.

Pointless.  But if you just like it, you enjoy it  :y

What irritates me is the Prius "I'm doing my bit, what about you?" attitude and the holding up drivers that would use less fuel at a constant 50mph in their highly efficient modern diesel.

I'm not saying this applies to you  :y :y
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Dishevelled Den

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Re: Let's not make a fuss
« Reply #39 on: 29 January 2010, 12:30:44 »

Quote
Used in London, in the C charge, they make more sense, but only due to the fact the government is daft and does not allow other cars to travel in free which have **better** real world mpg and **low emissions ** (eg C1, 107, Aygo).

Above 27mph, a modern diesel is better in every way, including ecologically-especially if you take into account,actual fuel used, usable life before becoming uneconomical to repair and the huge amount of mercury etc (transported halfway around the world during manufacture) used in construction etc etc etc.

It just fits with the "clueless green movement" and is trendy with the government.

Pointless.  But if you just like it, you enjoy it  :y

What irritates me is the Prius "I'm doing my bit, what about you?" attitude and the holding up drivers that would use less fuel at a constant 50mph in their highly efficient modern diesel.

I'm not saying this applies to you  :y :y

You're quite correct CTP, it doesn't and it's very kind of you to say so :y :y
« Last Edit: 29 January 2010, 12:40:50 by Zulu77 »
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cruisetopoland

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Re: Let's not make a fuss
« Reply #40 on: 29 January 2010, 12:49:32 »

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Quote
Used in London, in the C charge, they make more sense, but only due to the fact the government is daft and does not allow other cars to travel in free which have **better** real world mpg and **low emissions ** (eg C1, 107, Aygo).

Above 27mph, a modern diesel is better in every way, including ecologically-especially if you take into account,actual fuel used, usable life before becoming uneconomical to repair and the huge amount of mercury etc (transported halfway around the world during manufacture) used in construction etc etc etc.

It just fits with the "clueless green movement" and is trendy with the government.

Pointless.  But if you just like it, you enjoy it  :y

What irritates me is the Prius "I'm doing my bit, what about you?" attitude and the holding up drivers that would use less fuel at a constant 50mph in their highly efficient modern diesel.

I'm not saying this applies to you  :y :y

You're quite correct CTP, it doesn't and it's very kind of you to say so :y :y

What would be eco-friendly would not fit in with manufacturers ambitions; a simple, safe, rust-proof/galvanised car/chassis/body designed for longevity, with easily interchangeable body panels, drivetrains and interiors which could be updated as technology improved or fashion changed.

I did do a long post titled "environmentally sensible..." but no-one responded and now I can't find it...
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Kevin Wood

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Re: Let's not make a fuss
« Reply #41 on: 29 January 2010, 12:53:24 »

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Above 27mph, a modern diesel is better in every way, including ecologically-especially if you take into account,actual fuel used, usable life before becoming uneconomical to repair and the huge amount of mercury etc (transported halfway around the world during manufacture) used in construction etc etc etc.

I don't know so much. :-/ Diesels suffer just as badly from urban driving as petrol cars, and at least a Prius is quiet. Eerily so at times. ;)

Kevin
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Re: Let's not make a fuss
« Reply #42 on: 29 January 2010, 12:58:52 »

Quote
Quote
Above 27mph, a modern diesel is better in every way, including ecologically-especially if you take into account,actual fuel used, usable life before becoming uneconomical to repair and the huge amount of mercury etc (transported halfway around the world during manufacture) used in construction etc etc etc.

I don't know so much. :-/ Diesels suffer just as badly from urban driving as petrol cars, and at least a Prius is quiet. EerilyFrighteningly so at times. ;)

Kevin

Yep... Had a couple of near misses in car parks when they start moving without checking for pedestrians... We can't hear you! >:( >:(
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cruisetopoland

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Re: Let's not make a fuss
« Reply #43 on: 29 January 2010, 14:29:26 »

Quote
Quote
Above 27mph, a modern diesel is better in every way, including ecologically-especially if you take into account,actual fuel used, usable life before becoming uneconomical to repair and the huge amount of mercury etc (transported halfway around the world during manufacture) used in construction etc etc etc.

I don't know so much. :-/ Diesels suffer just as badly from urban driving as petrol cars, and at least a Prius is quiet. Eerily so at times. ;)

Kevin

Ok 27mph is maybe not the threshold....but what is the point of a Pruis on the motorway?  Most diesels will crucify the economy of it.

Seems daft to me that you get C-charge free in Prius but not in an 60-80mpg diesel Panda (I had one and regularly got in the 70s).
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Re: Let's not make a fuss
« Reply #44 on: 29 January 2010, 15:04:28 »

Quote
Quote
Quote
Above 27mph, a modern diesel is better in every way, including ecologically-especially if you take into account,actual fuel used, usable life before becoming uneconomical to repair and the huge amount of mercury etc (transported halfway around the world during manufacture) used in construction etc etc etc.

I don't know so much. :-/ Diesels suffer just as badly from urban driving as petrol cars, and at least a Prius is quiet. Eerily so at times. ;)

Kevin

Ok 27mph is maybe not the threshold....but what is the point of a Pruis on the motorway?  Most diesels will crucify the economy of it.
Seems daft to me that you get C-charge free in Prius but not in an 60-80mpg diesel Panda (I had one and regularly got in the 70s).


There is every point, it gets me - and many others no doubt - from A to B and as far as I'm concerned, CTP, fuel economy doesn't enter into it.

While most small diesel cars are busy 'crucifying' the Prius on the fuel economy front with the more expensive fuel of course -  you got economy in the 70's I get 60 mpg in the summer, does it really matter - they are however also putting out NOx and small particulate matter at the roadside?

I can also assure you that the difference between the Prius driven over distance and a small diesel car such as the Panda would be quite obvious to those unfortunates who were obliged to suffer in the Panda - but perhaps that's unfair as I haven't had occasion to live with or to be driven in one, so can't really justify my comments.

HTH :y :y

In addition I certainly don't resent those people who have had the temerity to choose small diesel powered vehicles ;) ;) :)
« Last Edit: 29 January 2010, 15:14:50 by Zulu77 »
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