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Author Topic: Seems a clever idea..  (Read 1374 times)

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Nickbat

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Seems a clever idea..
« on: 20 May 2010, 22:40:54 »

How to Pay off the National Debt & Give a 28.5% Tax Cut

http://www.cobdencentre.org/2010/05/the-emperors-new-clothes-how-to-pay-off-the-national-debt-give-a-28-5-tax-cut/

I follow most of it and can't, as yet, see any major fault with the idea. That's not to say there isn't one, though. Could it be the answer to our problems?

 :o :y   
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BigAl

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Re: Seems a clever idea..
« Reply #1 on: 20 May 2010, 23:42:12 »

the problem with this solution is the redefinition of cash - it is not a tangible object. think back to bartering- money was introduced to simplify this approach
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Nickbat

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Re: Seems a clever idea..
« Reply #2 on: 20 May 2010, 23:52:53 »

Quote
the problem with this solution is the redefinition of cash - it is not a tangible object. think back to bartering- money was introduced to simplify this approach

The Romans had cash. I can't think back further than that! ;)
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BigAl

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Re: Seems a clever idea..
« Reply #3 on: 21 May 2010, 00:14:28 »

Quote
Quote
the problem with this solution is the redefinition of cash - it is not a tangible object. think back to bartering- money was introduced to simplify this approach
The Romans had cash. I can't think back further than that! ;)
Did they ?
the only real currency is gold
« Last Edit: 21 May 2010, 00:15:55 by BigAl »
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Nickbat

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Re: Seems a clever idea..
« Reply #4 on: 21 May 2010, 00:19:25 »

Quote
Quote
Quote
the problem with this solution is the redefinition of cash - it is not a tangible object. think back to bartering- money was introduced to simplify this approach
The Romans had cash. I can't think back further than that! ;)
Did they ?
the only real currency is gold


Yep.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_currency
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BigAl

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Re: Seems a clever idea..
« Reply #5 on: 21 May 2010, 00:26:00 »

Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
the problem with this solution is the redefinition of cash - it is not a tangible object. think back to bartering- money was introduced to simplify this approach
The Romans had cash. I can't think back further than that! ;)
Did they ?
the only real currency is gold


Yep.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_currency
Sorry ! hoisted by your own petard - "Unlike most modern coins, Roman coins had intrinsic value."
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Nickbat

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Re: Seems a clever idea..
« Reply #6 on: 21 May 2010, 00:32:04 »

Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
the problem with this solution is the redefinition of cash - it is not a tangible object. think back to bartering- money was introduced to simplify this approach
The Romans had cash. I can't think back further than that! ;)
Did they ?
the only real currency is gold


Yep.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_currency
Sorry ! hoisted by your own petard - "Unlike most modern coins, Roman coins had intrinsic value."

Good point, but it's a case of yes and no.

At the end of the day - to the average person - a gold coin has no more intrinsic value than a plastic one. One can't use the gold in the coin. In other words, it is merely the acceptability of a coin/note in payment for goods and services that determines its value.  :y 
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Broomies Mate

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Re: Seems a clever idea..
« Reply #7 on: 21 May 2010, 00:34:12 »

ROFL!  What a load of crap.

It would only work if the entire world was in the same predicament and subscribed to the same idea, implementing it in an identical way at exactly the same time, furthermore, it would have to extinguish any difference in currency, where every nation would adopt a single currency.  Afterall, you cant spend Sterling in a country which doesnt accept it, thus rendering that piece of paper useless (even if it has a value).

We dont just deal in money on this small island..... we deal in money globally.

The concept is ludicrous!  It would cost more money to implement than it would save.

Back to the drawing board, hopefully this time without coloured chalks and a sticking out tongue.
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Nickbat

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Re: Seems a clever idea..
« Reply #8 on: 21 May 2010, 00:47:40 »

Quote
ROFL!  What a load of crap.

It would only work if the entire world was in the same predicament and subscribed to the same idea, implementing it in an identical way at exactly the same time, furthermore, it would have to extinguish any difference in currency, where every nation would adopt a single currency.  Afterall, you cant spend Sterling in a country which doesnt accept it, thus rendering that piece of paper useless (even if it has a value).

We dont just deal in money on this small island..... we deal in money globally.

The concept is ludicrous!  It would cost more money to implement than it would save.

Back to the drawing board, hopefully this time without coloured chalks and a sticking out tongue.


An insightful comment on the relative merits of fractional-reserve banking and full-reserve banking.

 ::)
« Last Edit: 21 May 2010, 00:56:48 by Nickbat »
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Broomies Mate

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Re: Seems a clever idea..
« Reply #9 on: 21 May 2010, 01:08:03 »

Quote
Quote
ROFL!  What a load of crap.

It would only work if the entire world was in the same predicament and subscribed to the same idea, implementing it in an identical way at exactly the same time, furthermore, it would have to extinguish any difference in currency, where every nation would adopt a single currency.  Afterall, you cant spend Sterling in a country which doesnt accept it, thus rendering that piece of paper useless (even if it has a value).

We dont just deal in money on this small island..... we deal in money globally.

The concept is ludicrous!  It would cost more money to implement than it would save.

Back to the drawing board, hopefully this time without coloured chalks and a sticking out tongue.


An insightful comment on the relative merits of fractional-reserve banking and full-reserve banking.

 ::)

What are you talking about (and I don't mean fractional/full reserve banking)..... I mean, what is the meaning of your reply?  It makes no immediate sense.

EDIT:  Ahhh, I think I see.  You are mocking me.  Interesting how you highlighted my general POV without retorting to my reasoning.  Nice work!  I wish I was as clever as you at debating!

Ball is now in your court, fella.  :)
« Last Edit: 21 May 2010, 01:47:38 by Broomies_Mate »
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Dishevelled Den

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Re: Seems a clever idea..
« Reply #10 on: 21 May 2010, 09:21:40 »

Quote
ROFL!  What a load of crap.

It would only work if the entire world was in the same predicament and subscribed to the same idea, implementing it in an identical way at exactly the same time, furthermore, it would have to extinguish any difference in currency, where every nation would adopt a single currency.  Afterall, you cant spend Sterling in a country which doesnt accept it, thus rendering that piece of paper useless (even if it has a value).

We dont just deal in money on this small island..... we deal in money globally.

The concept is ludicrous!  It would cost more money to implement than it would save.

Back to the drawing board, hopefully this time without coloured chalks and a sticking out tongue.


Quote
we deal in money globally.


 That’s a very pertinent point BM and a distinct disadvantage in the current trend towards globalisation - especially in the financial sector.

Quote
  It would cost more money to implement than it would save.

Another important point - with the proposed reduction in the electronically held/notional content of the financial inventory into hard cash, how would this be stored? - Would there be physical room for it all? - What about security and the need for additional personnel to move it about?  It's easy to see how the costs to address these and other practical matters would soon rise.

On a final practical note, say I wanted to purchase a high value item - something costing many thousands of pounds, the last thing I would want is to have to draw the figure concerned in cash hoping that the bank teller had counted it accurately then, being an inherently suspicious git, spending time recounting it myself to ensure I wasn't being diddled before trying to find room in my pockets to carry it.

I would further be concerned about the basic security aspect of moving around a lot of hard cash.  It’s easy to lose and provides a tempting target for opportunist thieves in an environment where the universal norm would be for individuals to transact all their business in cash.

No, I’m afraid that BM makes a convincing argument for either leaving the system as it is or going back to the drafting table.

« Last Edit: 21 May 2010, 10:57:24 by Zulu77 »
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Nickbat

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Re: Seems a clever idea..
« Reply #11 on: 21 May 2010, 13:10:48 »

Quote
Quote
Quote
ROFL!  What a load of crap.

It would only work if the entire world was in the same predicament and subscribed to the same idea, implementing it in an identical way at exactly the same time, furthermore, it would have to extinguish any difference in currency, where every nation would adopt a single currency.  Afterall, you cant spend Sterling in a country which doesnt accept it, thus rendering that piece of paper useless (even if it has a value).

We dont just deal in money on this small island..... we deal in money globally.

The concept is ludicrous!  It would cost more money to implement than it would save.

Back to the drawing board, hopefully this time without coloured chalks and a sticking out tongue.


An insightful comment on the relative merits of fractional-reserve banking and full-reserve banking.

 ::)

What are you talking about (and I don't mean fractional/full reserve banking)..... I mean, what is the meaning of your reply?  It makes no immediate sense.

EDIT:  Ahhh, I think I see.  You are mocking me.  Interesting how you highlighted my general POV without retorting to my reasoning.  Nice work!  I wish I was as clever as you at debating!

Ball is now in your court, fella.  :)

Yes, I was mocking. This is a serious issue surrounding fractional banking, though which vast amounts of credit can be generated. The Cobden Centre have put to together a very interesting discussion paper which would restrict bank lending (and thus credit) and ensure that customers' deposits are payable on demand in cash, thus removing underlying risk of a run on a bank which could not be met.

If you read the comments section, it would be quite feasible to convert demand deposits to other currencies at the market exchange rate.

I'm sorry if I offended, but reading "Roll About on the Floor Laughing....What a load of crap" does not do justice to the very complex and well-researched issues that this discussion paper raises, IMHO.
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Nickbat

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Re: Seems a clever idea..
« Reply #12 on: 21 May 2010, 13:17:59 »

Quote
Quote
ROFL!  What a load of crap.

It would only work if the entire world was in the same predicament and subscribed to the same idea, implementing it in an identical way at exactly the same time, furthermore, it would have to extinguish any difference in currency, where every nation would adopt a single currency.  Afterall, you cant spend Sterling in a country which doesnt accept it, thus rendering that piece of paper useless (even if it has a value).

We dont just deal in money on this small island..... we deal in money globally.

The concept is ludicrous!  It would cost more money to implement than it would save.

Back to the drawing board, hopefully this time without coloured chalks and a sticking out tongue.


Quote
we deal in money globally.


 That’s a very pertinent point BM and a distinct disadvantage in the current trend towards globalisation - especially in the financial sector.

Quote
  It would cost more money to implement than it would save.

Another important point - with the proposed reduction in the electronically held/notional content of the financial inventory into hard cash, how would this be stored? - Would there be physical room for it all? - What about security and the need for additional personnel to move it about?  It's easy to see how the costs to address these and other practical matters would soon rise.

On a final practical note, say I wanted to purchase a high value item - something costing many thousands of pounds, the last thing I would want is to have to draw the figure concerned in cash hoping that the bank teller had counted it accurately then, being an inherently suspicious git, spending time recounting it myself to ensure I wasn't being diddled before trying to find room in my pockets to carry it.

I would further be concerned about the basic security aspect of moving around a lot of hard cash.  It’s easy to lose and provides a tempting target for opportunist thieves in an environment where the universal norm would be for individuals to transact all their business in cash.

No, I’m afraid that BM makes a convincing argument for either leaving the system as it is or going back to the drafting table.



With respect, Zulu, I feel you have missed the point entirely. The banks would still be custodian of your money, but it would be YOUR money and available on demand in cash. As I understand it, it would not mean you lugging suitcases of cash around, but would restrict banks' ability to lend beyond their means. Well, roughly that.

There was a good comment posted by the author, which I shall reproduce here:

At the moment, if you deposit money, you are lending the bank money. This comes as a surprise to many. Indeed our very own hapless former Chancellor of the Exchequer, Alistair Darling was always confused by this in his period of office, regularly referring to deposits as assets of the banks. They are liabilities from the bank to the depositors. The assets are the loans. This is “O” Level economics and accountancy. So, if cash is replaced (a virtually costless act by the government) and put in the depositors’ accounts and swapped for or converted the demand deposits and/or the demand deposits just cancelled, the banks would no longer owe their depositors anything. They would be custodians of their clients’ cash, with a fiduciary responsibility to protect it. Post reform, with no liabilities, a banks will only have its capital that started it and assets, i.e. its loan portfolio. So the net worth of all banks has gone up to the exact extent that the banks liabilities have gone down. Why make the bank shareholders suddenly £850 billion better off by this action on converting demand deposits for cash? I say do not let the shareholders have the £850 bn benefit; let those assets (the loan repayments) go to paying off the national debt.


As I said, I'm not sure if the idea is totally sound, but there are many advantages to 100% Reserve banking and, in these times of financial uncertainty, we need to think about making banking much more secure in the future. If the banks always hold depositors' accounts (unless you have opted to let them lend it for interest income) in cash equivalent, a run on a bank would be most unlikely.   :y
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: Seems a clever idea..
« Reply #13 on: 21 May 2010, 13:30:18 »

nope.. first problem is actual money which someone lend at the beginning is not evaporated from the system.. it is blocked somewhere else by someone ..mostly in off shore accounts where its free of any tax..waiting for the "day" to come back which you cant control..
(I wont go into details but the offered system is  :P)

in year 2000 we had a similiar situation that all banks are in open position when many customers rushed to take their money back.. govt pay all those credits, closed many banks .. and make a law which states that all banks giving and taking credits must keep some fix ratio of that money in govt central bank which is blocked to prevent those circumstances ..

and also govt form an organization (BDDK) that controls all credit transactions of electronic banking system to keep them under control..
« Last Edit: 21 May 2010, 13:44:00 by cem_devecioglu »
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Dishevelled Den

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Re: Seems a clever idea..
« Reply #14 on: 21 May 2010, 14:11:22 »

Quote


With respect, Zulu, I feel you have missed the point entirely. The banks would still be custodian of your money, but it would be YOUR money and available on demand in cash. As I understand it, it would not mean you lugging suitcases of cash around, but would restrict banks' ability to lend beyond their means. Well, roughly that.

There was a good comment posted by the author, which I shall reproduce here:

At the moment, if you deposit money, you are lending the bank money. This comes as a surprise to many. Indeed our very own hapless former Chancellor of the Exchequer, Alistair Darling was always confused by this in his period of office, regularly referring to deposits as assets of the banks. They are liabilities from the bank to the depositors. The assets are the loans. This is “O” Level economics and accountancy. So, if cash is replaced (a virtually costless act by the government) and put in the depositors’ accounts and swapped for or converted the demand deposits and/or the demand deposits just cancelled, the banks would no longer owe their depositors anything. They would be custodians of their clients’ cash, with a fiduciary responsibility to protect it. Post reform, with no liabilities, a banks will only have its capital that started it and assets, i.e. its loan portfolio. So the net worth of all banks has gone up to the exact extent that the banks liabilities have gone down. Why make the bank shareholders suddenly £850 billion better off by this action on converting demand deposits for cash? I say do not let the shareholders have the £850 bn benefit; let those assets (the loan repayments) go to paying off the national debt.


As I said, I'm not sure if the idea is totally sound, but there are many advantages to 100% Reserve banking and, in these times of financial uncertainty, we need to think about making banking much more secure in the future. If the banks always hold depositors' accounts (unless you have opted to let them lend it for interest income) in cash equivalent, a run on a bank would be most unlikely.   :y



Quote
I feel you have missed the point entirely

Not for the first time ;D ;D


Quote
but it would be YOUR money and available on demand in cash.

Is that option not open to me at the moment?


Quote
it would not mean you lugging suitcases of cash around

I didn't envisage this when making the comment - rather - the suggestion (to me) seemed to place the money supply, as it pertained to the person on the street, in an every day fashion at least,  firmly back towards hard cash rather than the electronic transactions now commonly used.  :-/

Or perhaps the point of the exercise applies to what lies behind the counter of the bank on how the funds are accounted for and handled and has no relevance on how we go about spending it in the normal course of events. :-/ :-/  :-[

In any case, would properly constructed and enforced regulation not achieve the same result in terms of irresponsible lending and business practice by the banks? - As well as the depositors living within their means of course.

Finally, irrespective of whether or not deposits were held in cash, should sufficient people want to withdraw their funds, as a group, at any given time, would this not produce essentially the same result as a run on the bank?
« Last Edit: 21 May 2010, 14:16:00 by Zulu77 »
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