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[derry lad]

all 14 murdered declared innocent,a great relief for the families,but you have to ask,what took them so long?

[Banjax]

all 14 murdered declared innocent,a great relief for the families,but you have to ask,what took them so long?

admitting that our forces murdered unarmed innocent civilians, lied and covered it up is never easy 
truth always finds a way through tho.......eventually

[steve_daly]

I think it's quite sad that all the years of conflict were for what, the last corner of the Great British Empire. England should have and still should pull out and return the land back to Ireland.

But that's just my opinion.

[Martin_1962]

I think it's quite sad that all the years of conflict were for what, the last corner of the Great British Empire. England should have and still should pull out and return the land back to Ireland.

But that's just my opinion.

It is up to the people who live there

[Dishevelled Den]

I think it's quite sad that all the years of conflict were for what, the last corner of the Great British Empire. England should have and still should pull out and return the land back to Ireland.

But that's just my opinion.

Seems a simple enough idea R, but where would British citizens who live there go?

[Dishevelled Den]

all 14 murdered declared innocent,a great relief for the families,but you have to ask,what took them so long?

admitting that our forces murdered unarmed innocent civilians, lied and covered it up is never easy 
truth always finds a way through tho.......eventually

Irrespective of whatever many people would like to think, this is not a black and white issue - the following is a modified post I made on another thread concerning this matter;



The use of the army in response to what was, for the most part, a civil problem was always going to cause difficulties - but then it was necessary at the time as the civil police (Royal Ulster Constabulary) had lost the support of a sizeable section of the nationalist population(and control of the areas they inhabited)

When the army was being tasked for Operation Banner, aid to the civil power, in 1969 I seem to remember Jim Callaghan (the then Home Secretary) saying that it would be easy to send troops there but not so easy to bring them back, and so it proved.

The incident in Londonderry was one waiting to happen and a consequence of having armed soldiers on the streets at a time other than during open war and furthermore a, natural consequence of a cynical republican movement and its desire to foment conflict with British forces by using any means possible - including such demonstrations.

The army personnel concerned were doing their duty as soldiers that day and to have expected them to have done anything else would have rendered their presence there as being unnecessary - which it most certainly was not during a time of generalised murder and mayhem.

[steve_daly]

I'm not saying that they have to go anywhere.

If you look at a map of England, NI is part of it. Clearly this isn't the case. There isn't a piece of land in Scotland that remains part of England, or for that matter any in Wales either. Or indeed in any other country that was part of the Empire.

Is it right for England to still lay claim to part of an Island that clearly is not English?

[Dishevelled Den]

I'm not saying that they have to go anywhere.

If you look at a map of England, NI is part of it. Clearly this isn't the case. There isn't a piece of land in Scotland that remains part of England, or for that matter any in Wales either. Or indeed in any other country that was part of the Empire.

Is it right for England to still lay claim to part of an Island that clearly is not English?

Many British citizens presently living there would disagree with you R I'm sure and, being as they consider themselves to be British rather than Irish, would this idea not cause more than a few problems?

[steve_daly]

Being British, and part of the British Isles is one thing, but the land it self belongs to Ireland, not England.

I'm not suggesting it would ever happen, or be easy, or anything such like, just merely adding to the discussion.

English troops, government or anything else would not have been there or be there now if Ireland wasn't seen as yet another commodity or something else that the English could just take because they could. Bfor the spread of religion or for whatever reason the reining King of England at the time thought.

[Dishevelled Den]

Being British, and part of the British Isles is one thing, but the land it self belongs to Ireland, not England.

I'm not suggesting it would ever happen, or be easy, or anything such like, just merely adding to the discussion.

English troops, government or anything else would not have been there or be there now if Ireland wasn't seen as yet another commodity or something else that the English could just take because they could. Bfor the spread of religion or for whatever reason the reining King of England at the time thought.

Whilst history teaches us that there are consequences to actions taken, these actions must be judged using the criteria used by those engaging in such activity at the time - whether it was right or wrong.

There are many 'what if's' but these should logically pass into irrelevance because we must deal with the present.  In this context, the people who are presently living in Northern Ireland and consider themselves to be British must surely own the land they reside on or have a claim to it at the very least.

That is of course if land, in terms of nationhood, can really be owned by anyone, I would have thought that having stewardship of it would be the best anyone could hope for. 

[albitz]

Northern Ireland is not part of England or part of the map of England :-/ :-/ :-/ it is not "ruled" by England, England has no claim to it, other than to uphold the democratic wishes of the people who live there.It has exactly the same status as Scotland and Wales - one of the four constituent countries of the United Kingdom.
The land itself doesnt belong to Ireland for two reasons
1. There is no such country as Ireland, ther are two countries on the Island of Ireland - Northern Ireland and The Republic of Ireland.
2. In Democratic Western Europe a land doesnt belong to one country or another , it belongs to (for [political purposes at least) the people who inhabit it, and the majority of the people who inhabit the country of Northern Ireland very much wish to remain an integral part of the U.K. 
Northern Ireland is in no way a commodity, quite the reverse actually, in monetary terms it has cost British taxpayers huge amounts of money and if Westminster politicians could have found some way off getting rid of it quietly, they would have done so by the early/mid 70,s.
"English" soldiers - presumably speaking of the British army(English/Welsh/Scottish/N.Irish) didnt invade Northern Ireland btw. Their presence was actually reqeusted by the Catholic/Republican community.
Back to the Bloody Sunday issue - it was beyond belief that the enquiry took over 12 years and cost something like £180million to come to its conclusions. Apparently at least 17 lawyers have become millionares out of it.
I do hope that the families concerned can now have closure on the matter and it has now been put to bed so to speak, and the media and lawyers will have no more mileage out of it.

[steve_daly]

Hmm OK, possibly a little bad wording on my part to say 'part of England' however as you state, Northern Ireland is part of the UK and as such, this is what I meant and shows up in certain cituations, like this:



The Island of Ireland or any part of it was never part of the UK, until some time around the 1800's. A simple quote from Wiki if I may:

"A Norman invasion in the Middle Ages gave way to English domination by the 1500s. In the 1600s, a system of Protestant English rule was designed to materially disadvantage the Roman Catholic majority and Protestant dissenters, and was extended during the 1700s. In 1801, Ireland became a part of the United Kingdom. A war of independence in the early 20th century led to the partition of the island, creating the Irish Free State, which became increasingly sovereign over the following decades. Northern Ireland remained a part of the United Kingdom and saw much civil unrest from the late 1960s until the 1990s."

That is my point, the whole Island of Ireland was never part of the UK, until after occupation by the English and much tom foolery by Oliver Cromwell etc. He used land to pay his troops (commodity). English occupation  and religious differences eventually led to the to the Island being divided into Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

Calling Ireland or Eire "no such country" is being a little pedantic I feel. The Island of treland only came about after the division of the country in the first place.

What was it before it was invaded by the Normans and then the English? I think you will find by definition, it is a country:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/country

[Nickbat]

Rufus, with respect, under your reasoning, it could be said that Australia belongs to the Aborigines, New Zealand belongs to the Maoris and that the USA belongs to the Native Americans... Now, all this may be theoretically, morally - and even legally - true, but what happened in the 1800s is irrelevant in 2010.

My own view is that digging up the past is rarely a solution. It tends to cause more disquiet, not less.

We live in the present.

 

[Dishevelled Den]

Hmm OK, possibly a little bad wording on my part to say 'part of England' however as you state, Northern Ireland is part of the UK and as such, this is what I meant and shows up in certain cituations, like this:

http://international.uiowa.edu/study-abroad/images/UK-JR-UKmap.gif

The Island of Ireland or any part of it was never part of the UK, until some time around the 1800's. A simple quote from Wiki if I may:

"A Norman invasion in the Middle Ages gave way to English domination by the 1500s. In the 1600s, a system of Protestant English rule was designed to materially disadvantage the Roman Catholic majority and Protestant dissenters, and was extended during the 1700s. In 1801, Ireland became a part of the United Kingdom. A war of independence in the early 20th century led to the partition of the island, creating the Irish Free State, which became increasingly sovereign over the following decades. Northern Ireland remained a part of the United Kingdom and saw much civil unrest from the late 1960s until the 1990s."

That is my point, the whole Island of Ireland was never part of the UK, until after occupation by the English and much tom foolery by Oliver Cromwell etc. He used land to pay his troops (commodity). English occupation  and religious differences eventually led to the to the Island being divided into Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

Calling Ireland or Eire "no such country" is being a little pedantic I feel. The Island of treland only came about after the division of the country in the first place.

What was it before it was invaded by the Normans and then the English? I think you will find by definition, it is a country:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/country

I suppose it's very much a case of ‘if your grandmother had been blessed with balls she would have been your grandfather', if you forgive my freedom R - it's largely irrelevant to what's hiding under her drawers presently.

Whatever has gone before, the incontrovertible fact is that there are two countries presently occupying that landmass to the west of the British mainland: Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland - both members of the EU of course.

[albitz]

Hmm OK, possibly a little bad wording on my part to say 'part of England' however as you state, Northern Ireland is part of the UK and as such, this is what I meant and shows up in certain cituations, like this:



The Island of Ireland or any part of it was never part of the UK, until some time around the 1800's. A simple quote from Wiki if I may:

"A Norman invasion in the Middle Ages gave way to English domination by the 1500s. In the 1600s, a system of Protestant English rule was designed to materially disadvantage the Roman Catholic majority and Protestant dissenters, and was extended during the 1700s. In 1801, Ireland became a part of the United Kingdom. A war of independence in the early 20th century led to the partition of the island, creating the Irish Free State, which became increasingly sovereign over the following decades. Northern Ireland remained a part of the United Kingdom and saw much civil unrest from the late 1960s until the 1990s."

That is my point, the whole Island of Ireland was never part of the UK, until after occupation by the English and much tom foolery by Oliver Cromwell etc. He used land to pay his troops (commodity). English occupation  and religious differences eventually led to the to the Island being divided into Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

Calling Ireland or Eire "no such country" is being a little pedantic I feel. The Island of treland only came about after the division of the country in the first place.

What was it before it was invaded by the Normans and then the English? I think you will find by definition, it is a country:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/country

Not in the least pedantic.Just stating a simple fact. Ireland is an island (geographical entity) on which there are two countries (political entities), you may think that there shouldnt be, but that doesnt alter the fact that there is.
Believe me Rufus I dont need any Irish history lessons from wikipedia, but as others have said, The situation or status of the country in the past doesnt really bear relevance to its current status.the situation has been for almost 100 years that Northern Ireland is a country and is recognised as such in international law etc. To change the staus of that country would require the consent of its citizens and that is unlikely to be forthcoming in the foreseeable future.
The logic you use to say that both of the countries on the Island of Ireland should cease to exist and there should be one country called "Ireland, would also surely dictate that England, Scotland and Wales should also cease to exist and be replaced by one country - presumably called Great Britain ? :-/
Northern Ireland came about as a result of a deal thrashed out between the British government , and the then leadership of the IRA.
If you look back at the history of almost any country you will usually find that at some point it was conquered /invaded by another country - thats the way the world use to work- it doesnt mean that you should always turn back the clock and put it back how it was, this is often impossible anyway. The only sensible thing to do is to asess where you are now , and decide on the best course of action to move forward from that point.