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[CaptainZok]

Just wondering here if Dave hadn't crossed into lane 1 on the rbt but had exited straight onto lane 2 of the exit slip with the other vehicle on his nearside would it be classed as his fault or the fault of the other driver for trying to undertake him?

If he was lane 2 on approach, lane 2 on the roundabout then lane 2 on exit then the only way a collision would ensue is if the driver on lane 1 entered lane 2 and sideswiped him?

edit to add, provided he (Dave) did not enter lane 1 in the process....

But he has to cross lane 1 of the rbt to exit on lane 2 of the slip.

[Entwood]

Just wondering here if Dave hadn't crossed into lane 1 on the rbt but had exited straight onto lane 2 of the exit slip with the other vehicle on his nearside would it be classed as his fault or the fault of the other driver for trying to undertake him?

If he was lane 2 on approach, lane 2 on the roundabout then lane 2 on exit then the only way a collision would ensue is if the driver on lane 1 entered lane 2 and sideswiped him?

edit to add, provided he (Dave) did not enter lane 1 in the process....

If the driver in lane 1 was taking the "next" exit and just kept going, then no lane changing needs to take place at all.. as  Dippy "crosses" lane 1 for the right hand exit lane .. he gets "T-boned" by the lane 1 driver.......

One wonders if there are any lane markings (dotted lines) or lane arrows on this roundabout that attempt to control such manouveres ??

[CaptainZok]

He's posted this on his facebook.

[hotel21]

Just wondering here if Dave hadn't crossed into lane 1 on the rbt but had exited straight onto lane 2 of the exit slip with the other vehicle on his nearside would it be classed as his fault or the fault of the other driver for trying to undertake him?

If he was lane 2 on approach, lane 2 on the roundabout then lane 2 on exit then the only way a collision would ensue is if the driver on lane 1 entered lane 2 and sideswiped him?

edit to add, provided he (Dave) did not enter lane 1 in the process....

If the driver in lane 1 was taking the "next" exit and just kept going, then no lane changing needs to take place at all.. as  Dippy "crosses" lane 1 for the right hand exit lane .. he gets "T-boned" by the lane 1 driver.......

One wonders if there are any lane markings (dotted lines) or lane arrows on this roundabout that attempt to control such manouveres ??

Assumption time, perhaps....

Dave is on lane 2 around the roundabout, intent on leaving directly into lane 2 of his new road.

clit driver enters the roundabout before/during/after Dave passes their entrance point, unseen by Dave.

clit driver is intent on travelling straight ahead to their exit, in the correct lane 1 (according to them) whilst passing Daves intended exit.

clit driver is 'undertaking' Dave - or possibly just in Daves blindspot.

Dave intends to exit but fails to appreciate the undertaking/blindspotted clit whilst leaving the roundabout onto his new road.

Collision.

Whether the clit is undertaking or not, its is incumbent on the exiting driver, I contend, that it is safe to carry out the intended manouever.

Likewise, the clit driver should appreciate the potential movement of other drivers already on the roundabout.

Best probable outcome? - 50/50.  But would need a shed load of photo's/description/narrative as onus is on Dave in this scenario, IMO, as he is changing route/direction.  clit driver is already on their chosen path around a roundabout, as potentially indicated by road markings/highway code as taught.....

[Dishevelled Den]

In fact Dave could have opened himself to a tug on these facts - so a 50/50 is quite a reasonable outcome in my view.

[dippydave]

wow. thank you guys for a lot of input! i'm whizzing to work now but will do the map graphic thing soon and return with an illustration of the whole story.

there's a lot of information to digest just from these posts! thank you so much

[Terbs]

Hi Dave...
I have answered your pm...anything I can do to help.
The roundabout in question is just down the road from me and is a total pain. You do need your eyes everywhere, and it does tend to be an 'every man for himself' job.
There are many crashes there, mainly because of the closeness of the exits.
Peak period exits from the M40 are a nightmare. With all due respect to all posters of the correct ways to use roundabouts, I'm afraid it all goes out of the window here.
It seems that whichever lane you use coming round the roundabout, you will get cut up.
Usual scenario is cars coming from the southern exit to get onto the M40 use the inner lane, then cut across traffic entering from the A40 east or exiting from Tesco's albeit the latter are already on the roundabout.
To be quite frank, I avoid that roundabout like the plague. Living here, I obviously know other routes.
PM me again and I'll see if I can help.
For those of you you with Google Earth Street Views, locate yourself at the A40/M40 junction at Loudwater, near High Wycombe, Bucks, and drive around the roundabout...you will see what myself and Dave are talking about 

[mudflap]

Roundabouts - simple!

1. always give way to traffic coming from the right.
2. always watch the car in front - not the traffic coming from the right...until there is no car in front 

no idea what i would do on a roundabout on the continent though...  :-?

[jerry]

looks 50/50 to me too Im afraid in as much that a slower speed and better awareness from both might have prevented the collision. Dont get me wrong here, Ive had my fair shair of pretty close calls on roundabouts and theyve all been down to one of us going too fast in conjunction with lack of better awareness . The problem is that there are so many roundabouts now where the lanes merge or cross and,particularly if they are new to you, its not always easy to work out which lane you should be in -which is made all the more difficult when perhaps the "correct" method is ignored and the route of habit as used by all the regular users prevails instead! Anyway, good luck. Certainly I cannot see that she is blameless in this.

[Terbs]

Jerry....you have hit the nail on the head with your reply.
This roundabout IS notorious for speed.
In a nutshell, vehicles waiting to enter the roundabout (dual width on entry) see other vehicles zooming round on the inner lane, enter the roundabout on the outer lane then the car/s on the inner cut across at last minute to exit. The worst junction to exit to is the M40. Traffic tends to speed up PRIOR to entering the M40 slipway !!!! Also being on the downhill slope does not help.
To be quite frank, whichever lane you choose, it will be the wrong one!!!!!!!
The simple solution IMHO would be to make it a single carriage roundabout, but that won't happen

[Dishevelled Den]

looks 50/50 to me too Im afraid in as much that a slower speed and better awareness from both might have prevented the collision. Dont get me wrong here, Ive had my fair shair of pretty close calls on roundabouts and theyve all been down to one of us going too fast in conjunction with lack of better awareness . The problem is that there are so many roundabouts now where the lanes merge or cross and,particularly if they are new to you, its not always easy to work out which lane you should be in -which is made all the more difficult when perhaps the "correct" method is ignored and the route of habit as used by all the regular users prevails instead! Anyway, good luck. Certainly I cannot see that she is blameless in this.

going too fast in conjunction with lack of better awareness .

Generally the case with most road traffic incidents Jerry - sadly.

[jerry]

true, but whoever plans these multilane roundabouts could do a far better job in making it clear exactly which lane you need to be in for which exit and avoid all this madness of having to switch lanes in heavy traffic. Of course "slow and steady" would help but, as you say, all too often its quite the reverse. There is a very straightforward roundabout near us and if vehicles are going straight over they dont even bother to slow down on approach from the dual carriageway. Obviously all that stuff about slowing when anticipating a hazard bypassed them. Mind you, round here I dont think they realize what their indicators are for either!!

[Chris_H]

The fundamental cause of the problem is (as someone has said) that the exits are close together.

Proper signalling (by which I mean effective and un-mistakable) requires that we start signalling to exit, AS we pass the exit prior to leaving.  If the exits are close together, there is NO ALTERNATIVE but to slow our speed substantially.  Indicators flash at a legally-enforceable rate (and I have no argument with the rate), drivers joining the roundabout have to (read as 'should do' ) scan a number of directions and objects over a wide angular range.

The time it takes to recognise an active indicator is significant even if we assume that the lamp is prominent on the vehicle (and we are getting some very stupid indicator designs these days e.g Audi Q5 rears with brake lights on).

So, if the roundabout is busy we have to do a blinding start to get on, then somehow lose speed rapidly without getting rear-ended, before exiting at a snail's pace.

I have to agree that knock-for-knock is your best hope unless you have something special that you haven't said.

[Danny]

if you were choosing the right lane on your west road after entering from north, and she was also taking the west exit after entering the roundabout from the east she really should have not only seen you, but stayed in the left lane, being along side you as you both head west.

if she'd been heading north after joining from east, she should have joined the roundabout into your lane and would have been behind you in your lane if giving way properly