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[JohnM]

Bad link - but got there in the end.

But the "stealth" types,  where are they (what are they)?

[Jim]

I feel your pain mate, the whole speed camera thing in the UK is bo**ocks,  on the continent if you get caught speeding you pay your fine and the matter is finished, no points unless you where well over the limit.

What the UK goverment need to realise is that a driving license is not a luxury these days, many people who get speeding fines etc through the post where only over the limit by a few mph, and the roads the safety camera partnerships target are roads which have speed limits imposed on them which are too low for the road they are imposed on:
for example in Glasgow there is a 3 lane Dual carriageway which is 50 mph then it changes to 30 mph but there is no change to the road conditions, no schools nothing but the police sit there and issue tickets to drivers who have unkowningly broken the speed limit but where in no way driving dangerously, also on the M74/M6 in the Dumfries and in the Carlisle areas the Police place speed camera vans on the Motorway bridges and I have known people to get tickets for 78mph on the motorway, you can't tell me thats for safety reasons.
Many people in the UK need there driving liecnses for work reasons, no license no job, most people in the UK are safe drivers and you can soon tot up 12 points in a 3 year window and loss there license for 6 months to a year for silly little errors in there driving which where not dangerous and do not cause any concern to any other road user.

I'm not saying people should speed or not be punished, but my point is the system we have in the UK for dealing with drivers who have been caught speeding should be changed, if you get caught speeding passed a school at 31mph you get 3 points & £60 fine, but if you drove passed the same school at 55mph you would also get 3 points and a fine, same punishment but 2 very diffirent driving styles, I believe you should only get points if you where 15mph over the posted speed limit anything below that should only be a fine but should be noted for the same period as the points on your license.

[Lazydocker]

Interesting idea Jim. I must confess I'm no angel but do try and be aware. IMO 30 means 30, 40 means 40, generally 50 means 50 but that white disc with a black stripe is (again, generally) open season.

I do think that the limit on some dual carriageways and most motorways is too low though.

[steve_daly]

Bad link - but got there in the end.

But the "stealth" types,  where are they (what are they)?

My bad, fixed it now

Two of my tickets were by mobile vans, both with hardly noticable markings, infact no visible markings what so ever from either direction but on roads with plenty of signs dotted here and there.

The third ticket I got was definately a box by the side of the road and not a bright yellow one on a pole. Where I got tagged there was no fixed camera and no on/off road or layby parking. First I knew was when the letter came through my door.

Still, only myself to blame.

[Jim]

Interesting idea Jim. I must confess I'm no angel but do try and be aware. IMO 30 means 30, 40 means 40, generally 50 means 50 but that white disc with a black stripe is (again, generally) open season.

I do think that the limit on some dual carriageways and most motorways is too low though.

Agreed, most european countrys have a limit of 130kph/80mph on there motorways so why don't we.

[steve_daly]

Interesting idea Jim. I must confess I'm no angel but do try and be aware. IMO 30 means 30, 40 means 40, generally 50 means 50 but that white disc with a black stripe is (again, generally) open season.

I do think that the limit on some dual carriageways and most motorways is too low though.

Agreed, most european countrys have a limit of 130kph/80mph on there motorways so why don't we.

I feel the speed limits in this country are fine.

Not that you can ever do the speed limits due to all the road works and the sheer amount of traffic on the roads. They should use the revenue raised from all our speeding tickets to improve the road networks in this country and maybe then we wouldn't get so frustrated with the drive home and feel the need to leather around everywhere or rush around like blue arsed flys on B roads avoiding motorway conjestion.

[Martin_1962]

I have seen a talivan parked on the A30 in Devon. On a down hill, wheels in gutter, nearly getting hit by artics.

Left Left go on go on!!

[tidla]

Interesting idea Jim. I must confess I'm no angel but do try and be aware. IMO 30 means 30, 40 means 40, generally 50 means 50 but that white disc with a black stripe is (again, generally) open season.

I do think that the limit on some dual carriageways and most motorways is too low though.

Agreed, most european countrys have a limit of 130kph/80mph on there motorways so why don't we.

 have you not seen the "toilet" and "drink driving limits " thread?

we have to adopt other countries crap other than the useful stuff.

  :-?

[Kevin Wood]

A couple of days ago I followed a Police traffic car through our village (main road now 30mph limit recently reduced from 40). He did a constant 42 mph the whole way. They can't even be bothered to set an example these days.

Kevin

[omegadan67]

I'd be inclined to check the whether suitable warning signs are in the vicinty of the camera, as required...  You may be able to get away with them under a technicality....

This camera signing, visibility and conspicuity guidance has no bearing on the
enforcement of offences. Non-compliance with this guidance does not provide any
mitigation of, or defence for, an alleged offence committed under current UK law.

You are still breaking the law regardless of whether the camera is sign posted or not.

i think you may find that if the regulations pertaining to visibility of carera sites and locations and the signs to notify the public do not conform to government requirements then you DOhave a defence in a court of law.

this "loop hole" has cost many counties thousands of pounds in court fees and lost revenue by not adhering to the regulations

[TheBoy]

Interesting idea Jim. I must confess I'm no angel but do try and be aware. IMO 30 means 30, 40 means 40, generally 50 means 50 but that white disc with a black stripe is (again, generally) open season.

I do think that the limit on some dual carriageways and most motorways is too low though.

Hmmm, the current trends around here are to reduce all the country A roads from national speed limit to 50mph. Which appears to have increased accidents.  As there is no rational need for this limit, I happily choose to ignore it and treat it as old fashioned national limit.


In Milton Keynes, the grid roads were national limit (and a lot being dual carriageway, so 70mph).  This is safe, as the estates are generally well away from them, and all pedestrians/cyclists have their own, seperate 'road' systems called redways.  Also, in Milton Keynes, there is a high concentration of particularly stupid people (calling their brain cell lonely implies they have one). Becuase of their inability to realise that playing chickens with cars will hurt, their were a fair few accidents involving pedestrains/cyclists on some of the grid roads (remember, the pedestrians/cyclists shouldn't be on them, but on their redways), so the council have lowered a load of the limits  .

My view, as constantly repeated, is survival of the fittest. If you are too stupid, you die, and that stupidity is slowly removed from the gene pool 

[Kevin Wood]

.... My view, as constantly repeated, is survival of the fittest. If you are too stupid, you die, and that stupidity is slowly removed from the gene pool

Problem is, for that system to work, they have to get run over before they successfully reproduce, so before the age of 12 or so.

Kevin

[steve_daly]

I'd be inclined to check the whether suitable warning signs are in the vicinty of the camera, as required...  You may be able to get away with them under a technicality....

This camera signing, visibility and conspicuity guidance has no bearing on the
enforcement of offences. Non-compliance with this guidance does not provide any
mitigation of, or defence for, an alleged offence committed under current UK law.

You are still breaking the law regardless of whether the camera is sign posted or not.

i think you may find that if the regulations pertaining to visibility of carera sites and locations and the signs to notify the public do not conform to government requirements then you DOhave a defence in a court of law.

this "loop hole" has cost many counties thousands of pounds in court fees and lost revenue by not adhering to the regulations

Do you have any proof of this at all :question As I have never heard of someone getting off a fine because there was no little white sign by the side of the road or that a van didn't have stickers on it. That quote is infact from the government pdf link posted earlier.

As far as I am aware the only signs that police/government etc have to have up to enforce any speeding ticket, is a sign actually posting the speed limit itself, nothing more.

I know there have been cases with 30 limits and street lamps, but I have never seen anything regarding speed camera signs themselves.

[Jim]

I'd be inclined to check the whether suitable warning signs are in the vicinty of the camera, as required...  You may be able to get away with them under a technicality....

This camera signing, visibility and conspicuity guidance has no bearing on the
enforcement of offences. Non-compliance with this guidance does not provide any
mitigation of, or defence for, an alleged offence committed under current UK law.

You are still breaking the law regardless of whether the camera is sign posted or not.

i think you may find that if the regulations pertaining to visibility of carera sites and locations and the signs to notify the public do not conform to government requirements then you DOhave a defence in a court of law.

this "loop hole" has cost many counties thousands of pounds in court fees and lost revenue by not adhering to the regulations

Do you have any proof of this at all :question As I have never heard of someone getting off a fine because there was no little white sign by the side of the road or that a van didn't have stickers on it. That quote is infact from the government pdf link posted earlier.

As far as I am aware the only signs that police/government etc have to have up to enforce any speeding ticket, is a sign actually posting the speed limit itself, nothing more.I know there have been cases with 30 limits and street lamps, but I have never seen anything regarding speed camera signs themselves.

WRONG!!

Government Guidelines For Placement of Speed Cameras
Where can the police, councils and camera partnerships place speed cameras? The government have a set of guidelines that authorities must adhere to when considering the location for a new camera.

There is a slightly different criteria for fixed, mobile, and digital sites. Further rules govern visibility and signing - see the column on the left of this page for details.

Criteria for fixed site cameras (e.g. GATSO)

Criteria Details
1. Site length Between 400 & 1500 meters
2. Number of fatal & serious collisions At least 4 per Km in last 3 calendar years (not per annum)
3. Number of personal injury collisions 8 per Km in last 3 years
4. Causation factors Collisions where causation factors are not speed related must not be included
5. 85th percentile speed at or approaching collision hot spot 85th percentile speed at or above ACPO guidance (10% plus 2mph) for free flowing traffic (excluding rush hour). Partnerships must have a strategy to move thresholds to the ACPO guidance level by April 2005
6. Percentage over the speed limit At least 20% of drivers are exceeding the speed limit, excluding congestion period
7. Site conditions suitable for type of enforcement Loading and unloading the camera can take place safely
8. Distribution of collisions Collisions are clustered close together around a single stretch of road or junction
9. No other engineering solution is appropriate There has been a site survey by a road safety engineer and there are no other obvious practical measure to improve road safety along this stretch of road.
10. Camera visibility Enforcement cameras are well signed and highly visible in line with DfT guidelines

Criteria for digital enforcement sites:

Criteria Details
1. Site length Between 3000 and 10,000 metres
2. Number of fatal & serious collisions At least 5 per Km in last three calendar years along a minimum 3 Km stretch of road (not per annum). At least 4 in previous three calendar years in each subsequent Km (not per annum).
3. Number of personal injury collisions At least 10 PIA per km in last three calendar years (min 3km). At least 8 PIA in previous 3 calendar years in each subsequent km.
4. Causation factors Collisions where causation factors are not speed related must not be included
5. 85th percentile speed at or approaching collision hot spot 85th percentile speed at or above ACPO guidance (10% plus 2mph) for free flowing traffic (excluding rush hour). Partnerships must have a strategy to move thresholds to the ACPO guidance level by April 2005
6. Percentage over the speed limit At least 20% of drivers are exceeding the speed limit, excluding congestion period
7. Site conditions suitable for type of enforcement Location for mobile enforcement is easily accessible, there is space for enforcement to take place in a visible and safe manner 
8. Distribution of collisions Accidents are more likely to be evenly distributed along a route
9. No other engineering solution is appropriate There has been a site survey by a road safety engineer and there are no other obvious practical measure to improve road safety along this stretch of road.
10. Camera visibility Enforcement cameras are well signed and highly visible in line with DfT guidelines

Criteria for mobile enforcement sites:

Criteria Details
1. Site length Between 400 and 3000 metres (can be linked into a longer route strategy if more than three stretches satisfy the criteria) 
2. Number of fatal & serious collisions At least 2 per Km in last three calendar years (not per annum)
3. Number of personal injury collisions At least 4 per Km in last three calendar years
4. Causation factors Collisions where causation factors are not speed related must not be included
5. 85th percentile speed at or approaching collision hot spot 85th percentile speed at or above ACPO guidance (10% plus 2mph) for free flowing traffic (excluding rush hour). Partnerships must have a strategy to move thresholds to the ACPO guidance level by April 2005
6. Percen

[Kevin Wood]

...Criteria Details
1. Site length Between 400 and 3000 metres (can be linked into a longer route strategy if more than three stretches satisfy the criteria)
2. Number of fatal & serious collisions At least 2 per Km in last three calendar years (not per annum)
3. Number of personal injury collisions At least 4 per Km in last three calendar years
4. Causation factors Collisions where causation factors are not speed related must not be included
5. 85th percentile speed at or approaching collision hot spot 85th percentile speed at or above ACPO guidance (10% plus 2mph) for free flowing traffic (excluding rush hour). Partnerships must have a strategy to move thresholds to the ACPO guidance level by April 2005
6. Percen...

So we've got the "Ambulance Chasers" to thank for most of them, no doubt.

Kevin