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[geoffr70]

I don't necessarily support this, but does it not hi-light the fact that many muslims are the ones with double standards, are not tolerant, and that they take hyprocracy to a whole new level.

They don't need the symbolic burning of a Koran to resort to killing innocent people, in the name of their 'religion'. They will do it anyway.

They choose to be offended. They are muslims, we are not, so I have no respect for their Mohammed, or their attitude towards women, and their little value for life.

Why does Tony Blair encourage us to read the Koran, instead of burning it? Why do the so called leaders not spend more time defending our way of life, culture, values and beliefs (religious or otherwise), instead of rallying to the defence of muslims, who choose to be offended and have a victim mentality, and whose ultimate goal is to subjugate, convert, or kill non muslims?

I think it is about time we say a big group no to their behaviour, whether that's a political, economic, diplomatic no, or military no (I've done my time getting bombed, mortared, rpg'd, stoned, bricked, shot at).

The arrogance of it all is unreal. I'm all for people having rights, but IMO it's gone way too far. I'm all for freedom of expression, speech and association. So what if someone is offended by the views or beliefs of someone else! We're all adults living in a big nasty world, you won't agree with everyone all the time, muslims need to take this onboard.

I should add I have nothing against muslims, or any particular group, just the fact that some of them think they are more deserving than others, when they are not.

[Proz]

I have a strange feeling there wont be too many replies to this what ever peoples opinions are  .
The racist card will be flashed up at anyone stating an opinion either way  :-/

[Lizzie_Zoom]

The burning has all been called off, thank God! 8-) 8-) 8-)

Many lives were going to be put at risk whatever you may think of the subject.

Apart from that 

[TheBoy]

I don't think its fair to tar all Muslims with the same brush and insinuate they are all terrorists.  I'm sure its equally unfair to call all Christians during the Crusades as terrorists.  Not all 1930s Germans were Nazis.

With any part of society, its the extremists that cause the issues, be it Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Prodestents.



Seeing as this is likely to get the racists all chaffing at the bit, I'll watch this thread carefully, and anyone, on either side of any argument, that severely oversteps the line may find themselves without an OOF account.  So feel free to debate, but seriously think about who you may upset before pressing the Post button

[TheBoy]

And before slagging off the Koran, I would suggest tackling the more mainstream versions of it - I had to read it at school back in the mid 1980s.

I also think Jews should read the New Testiment, Christians pay more attention to Old Testiment, we all should attempt to understand the principles of Hindu and so on.

If we all had an understanding of different faiths, and were more tolerant, it would leave less religion for the extremists to hide behind

[Proz]

The burning has all been called off, thank God! 8-) 8-) 8-)

Many lives were going to be put at risk whatever you may think of the subject.

Apart from that 

Im glad the pistol toting preacher has called it off as well .
Its just madness and would cause real trouble 
Otherwise im with you on this one 

[geoffr70]

I have a strange feeling there wont be too many replies to this what ever peoples opinions are  .
The racist card will be flashed up at anyone stating an opinion either way  :-/

I think that is part of the problem though. It is absolutely not racist to discuss these issues, or make constructive criticism. We are brainwashed into believing that 'You can't say that' or 'You can't say this'. Who says? I would like to meet them, I think this new Pseudo-religion of Equality and Diversity, imposed on us, is all one sided. We are all told to abide by it under pain of losing your job, castigation and being ostracised.

I'm not tarring all muslims with the same brush. Why don't these 'moderate muslims' do more to say 'that's not us and not what we believe'?

I'm pretty sure I would.

[TheBoy]

constructive criticism

Thats the problem, its rarely constructive

Why don't these 'moderate muslims' do more to say 'that's not us and not what we believe'?

I suspect they do try, but a lot of people in our society are vegetables, and believe whatever story the BBC chooses to sensationalise that day, and the BBC cannot sensationalise mainstream/moderate believers - always a better story to get people with extreme views

[cem_devecioglu]

geoff you do ask important questions and their answers are historically deep.. however I must simply give the answer.. 

politics and religion are two very good friends from the begining of history.. and they both use each other in every opportunity.. 

now , in order to analyse the situtation we must be aware of some facts..

* many politicians in order to have more power, abuse religion everytime even if thats a republic or a kingdom.. as it means millions of votes..

* religion by its nature is very prone to abuse as its originally a series of god given laws to arrange human life..

so saying to be secular or trying to be secular in real terms has no meaning imo.. as an experience I can say including many western countries and middle east countries secularity is nothing more than a talk or something only on paper.. there are millions of examples which prooves that a country saying secular in reality is not..

actually religion is the one which is mostly the winner..

now other facts:

* especially in middle east countries religion is a serious means of earning money.. if you start to demonstrate
yourself a religious person you will have many people around you helping in every possible way..

* now if you have ever had the chance of reading those books especially the one you mentioned
you will see that it has some sayings that can seriously start a war.. However after two thousand years anybody
who accepts those statements serious and acct accordingly must be handled seperately from community  imo..

* however adding to the complexity of problem some west and some developed middle east countries 
obviously pump more fuel to the fire.. you can guess who they are..

now explaining my position , I do believe neither of those books.. they are from the past, may be valid in their day
and some of their rules may apply to this day but actually cant help manage my life in this century..

now about the subject of burning those books.. nope.. wont help solve nothing..instead will start a big fight between
the believers of those religions and western world.. and bring ultra trouble..

and a final fact:

* I think some western countries must stop helping those religious fundemantalists (also here)  or
they will get many copies of iran in middle east..
 

[Dishevelled Den]

If we all had an understanding of different faiths, and were more tolerant, it would leave less religion for the extremists to hide behind

Agreed.

Enlightenment through education and understanding is the basic tenet of tolerance towards others and their beliefs - even if those beliefs are difficult to accept and run counter to the observer’s moral quotient.

Those who possess the will and capacity to understand are often the first to be castigated and suppressed when despotic individuals wish to assume control or influence over their lives.

Only in the breeding grounds of ignorance and apathy can hatred and malevolence be nurtured and set free to blight the lives of the many.

[Dishevelled Den]

The burning has all been called off, thank God! 8-) 8-) 8-)

Many lives were going to be put at risk whatever you may think of the subject.

Apart from that 

I would certainly agree with that Lizzie.

[cem_devecioglu]

If we all had an understanding of different faiths, and were more tolerant, it would leave less religion for the extremists to hide behind

Agreed.

Enlightenment through education and understanding is the basic tenet of tolerance towards others and their beliefs - even if those beliefs are difficult to accept and run counter to the observer’s moral quotient.

Those who possess the will and capacity to understand are often the first to be castigated and suppressed when despotic individuals wish to assume control or influence over their lives.

Only in the breeding grounds of ignorance and apathy can hatred and malevolence be nurtured and set free to blight the lives of the many.

explanation and translation please .. really I dont understand anything

[geoffr70]

If we all had an understanding of different faiths, and were more tolerant, it would leave less religion for the extremists to hide behind

Agreed.

Enlightenment through education and understanding is the basic tenet of tolerance towards others and their beliefs - even if those beliefs are difficult to accept and run counter to the observer’s moral quotient.

Those who possess the will and capacity to understand are often the first to be castigated and suppressed when despotic individuals wish to assume control or influence over their lives.

Only in the breeding grounds of ignorance and apathy can hatred and malevolence be nurtured and set free to blight the lives of the many.

explanation and translation please .. really I dont understand anything

I don't want understanding of islam or other religions, nor do many other people I suspect. Not that I'm against it, I would say the same about many other religions and ideologies.

Religion, should you choose to follow one, and abide by it's rules, is a personal decision for you and you alone. By making this choice, one should do it with the fact that other people haven't, in mind. It just seems that while most of us can live and let live, they are certain groups that can't. I don't want to know about Islam, (nor other religions), so why does the BBC and other production companies try to appease muslims by putting on pro muslim programs (yes there are muslims in Britain so they are perfectly entitled to have programs just like anyone else), but through my experience I have to take a cynical view.

Another point, is that how can one of the main target groups of 'Equality and Diversity', not embrace and uphold what it stands for?

Just a point to note, contrary to what people might think, I'm not racist in the slightest, I can and do speak to anyone/give them the time of day, but I think alot of people now are sick of the sob stories of certain groups.

[Mysteryman]

Where's Banjax? He could mock all those who believe in fairy stories. And I could join him.

[Dishevelled Den]

I don't necessarily support this, but does it not hi-light the fact that many muslims are the ones with double standards, are not tolerant, and that they take hyprocracy to a whole new level.


Would it be reasonable to expect the many followers of Islam who hold the Holy Quran in such high regard not to be offended by this outrageous act but can they really be held to account by the actions and fundamentalist beliefs predicated by a modest number (in global terms) of their fellow ‘believers’?

They don't need the symbolic burning of a Koran to resort to killing innocent people, in the name of their 'religion'. They will do it anyway.

I assume you refer to the more fundamentalist followers of Islam rather than the main stream - should you not be then surely that's a vast generalisation?

They choose to be offended. They are muslims, we are not, so I have no respect for their Mohammed, or their attitude towards women, and their little value for life.

Do you really understand the teachings of the Prophet, Geoff?  And does your attitude towards the followers not display similar intolerance?

Why does Tony Blair encourage us to read the Koran, instead of burning it? Why do the so called leaders not spend more time defending our way of life, culture, values and beliefs (religious or otherwise), instead of rallying to the defence of muslims, who choose to be offended and have a victim mentality, and whose ultimate goal is to subjugate, convert, or kill non muslims?

Again Geoff I consider this to be a vast generalisation - are you suggesting all the followers of Islam are this way inclined.

The musings of a discredited politician such as Mr Blair are irrelevant although I do agree with you that people in this country should be proud of their heritage and stand firm for the right to express their own beliefs without fear of retribution

I think it is about time we say a big group no to their behaviour, whether that's a political, economic, diplomatic no, or military no (I've done my time getting bombed, mortared, rpg'd, stoned, bricked, shot at).

To my mind you are considering this from a rather simplistic perspective Geoff, the practice of politics at national and international level demands clear, considered and above all strategic thinking.  Adopting the 'balls-out' approach would be foolhardy and, we can see what ill-considered military action relevant to this 'problem' has brought us.

The arrogance of it all is unreal. I'm all for people having rights, but IMO it's gone way too far. I'm all for freedom of expression, speech and association. So what if someone is offended by the views or beliefs of someone else! We're all adults living in a big nasty world, you won't agree with everyone all the time, muslims need to take this onboard.

Are you suggesting that those standing up for their beliefs are being arrogant in this case Geoff - surely not?

I would have thought the sign of a mature democracy (insofar as we have one) is the ability of the system to embrace the many differences found in those making up its citizenry and allow them to flourish under the law.

I should add I have nothing against muslims, or any particular group, just the fact that some of them think they are more deserving than others, when they are not.

The fact that you say you don't have anything against the followers of Islam should encourage those followers of the faith presently reading this correspondence to believe that tolerance and understanding is alive and thriving in the UK.