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[cem_devecioglu]

capitilism quickly returns to blind, bullish complacency cem - crisis? what crisis? I'm alright Jack

That is the strange fact surrounding capitalism though BJ.  Capitalism has the inherent strength to always recover from any reversals, with individuals getting hurt, but the system as a whole surviving and moving forward!

Other systems tested by mankind, Communism for instance, do not have that resilience, and brings about an entire collaspe of the country; USSR! Cuba and North Korea to come

Lizzie , ask any Russian that which is better (who is living abroad under a capitalist system) and you will be surprised with their answers

my wife also who was living under a similiar system now experiencing my country , not pleased with that also.. :-/

[cem_devecioglu]

for how many years Cuba is living under the usa pressure..

and still they keep up..

and did you know patients from my country go to Cuba for better service   (not europe or usa)

and did you know we buy many different type injection drugs from Cuba for 1/10 or 1/20 price of usa drug market..

and for the economy , a combined model would be better in those days but I'm sure even you dont think
capitalist system is better after all these mess

for how many years Cuba is living under the usa pressure..

I agree and I think this has been a failing in US foreign policy.

and still they keep up..

Given the present state of that country - they haven't been too successful.

did you know their birth death rates are a small percentage of my country..

and did you know patients from my country go to Cuba for better service   (not europe or usa)

What does that say about the Turkish system cem and how much does the financial attraction figure in this?

financial figures of course effective but they are really successful on that subject..And they care the patients not the money..

but I'm sure even you dont think capitalist  system is better after all these mess

I will certainly agree that it's far from perfect and that it will continue to be exploited by those who desire money and influence above all else - however the same can be said for communism and that system has certainly brought the less appealing aspect of human behaviour to the fore on more than a few occasions.

I think it fair to say that the rigid adherence to the communist ideal displayed by Fidel Castro and his regime has resulted in the crisis alluded to by his brother Raul.

I think 3 important points must be mentioned at that point Zulu..

first , whole capitalist countries richness are stemmed from the centuries of exploitation on many latin, african and asian countries..  thats a fact..

second, if Fidel and Che were not successful, Cuba would be still a "bordel" and a gambling house for rich ..

third , the famous big brother musnt forget that still its dependant on afro-american men for wars , for labour , for bad jobs that most doesnt accept..

[Dishevelled Den]

I think 3 important points must be mentioned at that point Zulu..

first , whole capitalist countries richness are stemmed from the centuries of exploitation on many latin, african and asian countries..  thats a fact..


Yes, that's one aspect in how this system has opened itself to the excess of mankind however communism has been similarly compromised.


second, if Fidel and Che were not successful, Cuba would be still a "bordel" and a gambling house for rich ..


Oh I agree that they very successfully overturned the Battista regime (rightly so) but was that effort not thrown away by the dogged adherence to the communist desire that has resulted in the problems they face today?

third , the famous big brother musnt forget that still its dependant on afro-american men for wars , for labour , for bad jobs that most doesnt accept..

The US, as any country, depends on the available labour pool to satisfy its economic, social and international commitments.  To suggest that blacks are exploited in this way doesn't recognise the multi-racial nature of their available work-force.

Plenty of people flock to that country (especially from Central America- Cuba included) for the chance of a better life.  Whether they get it or not is a debateable point.

[cem_devecioglu]

I think 3 important points must be mentioned at that point Zulu..

first , whole capitalist countries richness are stemmed from the centuries of exploitation on many latin, african and asian countries..  thats a fact..


Yes, that's one aspect in how this system has opened itself to the excess of mankind however communism has been similarly compromised.

I'm afraid cant agree that..show me one example of communist country that exploited a latin , african or an asian country like the capitalist countries did ..


second, if Fidel and Che were not successful, Cuba would be still a "bordel" and a gambling house for rich ..


Oh I agree that they very successfully overturned the Battista regime (rightly so) but was that effort not thrown away by the dogged adherence to the communist desire that has resulted in the problems they face today?

imo, no..  today whole world economic system is tied .. remember china keeping nearly a trillion dollar usa govt papers and cant sell    under those circumstances you cant live on an island completely isolated from the world problems..its normal that  they will face problems.. but the reason is definitely not the system there.. (and the other factors I mentioned above)


third , the famous big brother musnt forget that still its dependant on afro-american men for wars , for labour , for bad jobs that most doesnt accept..

The US, as any country, depends on the available labour pool to satisfy its economic, social and international commitments.  To suggest that blacks are exploited in this way doesn't recognise the multi-racial nature of their available work-force.

Plenty of people flock to that country (especially from Central America- Cuba included) for the chance of a better life.  Whether they get it or not is a debateable point.

yep.. there is a saying in my language "if the bald have the recipe will apply for the self first"

[Dishevelled Den]

I'm afraid cant agree that..show me one example of communist country that exploited a latin , african or an asian country like the capitalist countries did ..


Are you suggesting that the former USSR didn't seek to have influence in Africa, the Middle East, and South America - including Cuba for their strategic and economic gain? 

Although China seems now to be a curious hybrid of a communist-capitalist-authoritarian state they have in the past, when inclined towards communism more than anything, sought to establish influence elsewhere in the world. Now, more than at any other time in their history, they seem to be plundering the world for their own purposes.

Exploitation of others is in our nature as human beings sadly and whether it's dressed up as capitalism or communism matters little as the end result is the same.

In short you can't denigrate capitalism and ignore communism – their mutual desire to achieve results irrespective of the moral cost are two sides of the same coin.



imo, no..  today whole world economic system is tied .. remember china keeping nearly a trillion dollar usa govt papers and cant sell    under those circumstances you cant live on an island completely isolated from the world problems..its normal that  they will face problems.. but the reason is definitely not the system there.. (and the other factors I mentioned above)

I can't see how that is valid cem.  Yes the economic and financial structures world-wide are closer than ever (not necessarily a good thing in my view) but in the case of Cuba, the island hardly flourished in any positive way in the 'good' times before the current down-turn, so while the present world economic climate hasn't helped them, to blame it on their current difficulties is stretching things a bit.


yep.. there is a saying in my language "if the bald have the recipe will apply for the self first"

That's a fine saying cem and in the case of Cuba particularly, if they had a viable system as a result of the popular revolution then perhaps many of those who made the dangerous journey to the US would have stayed at home to enjoy their quality of life.

I'm not saying that the capitalist system is the one and only path to follow - it has many faults, just like communism.  Both are held hostage to the human condition of individuals and nations looking out for number one.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

capitilism quickly returns to blind, bullish complacency cem - crisis? what crisis? I'm alright Jack

That is the strange fact surrounding capitalism though BJ.  Capitalism has the inherent strength to always recover from any reversals, with individuals getting hurt, but the system as a whole surviving and moving forward!

Other systems tested by mankind, Communism for instance, do not have that resilience, and brings about an entire collaspe of the country; USSR! Cuba and North Korea to come

Lizzie , ask any Russian that which is better (who is living abroad under a capitalist system) and you will be surprised with their answers

my wife also who was living under a similiar system now experiencing my country , not pleased with that also.. :-/

I do Cem, most days; the young students from the former Soviet Block!  

They all state that the old communist system is not what they ever want to return, and their parents feel the same.  They do say however that their grandparents rather liked the "certainty" of the old system.  So many eggs, loaves of bread, milk, regularly every day / week, with no thought having to be given to any change and complication with their lives.  But, the Soviet system did not give them the freedoms they now enjoy, and the rising wealth of their families, and certainly their parents record how bad it all got in the last decades.  The grandparents certainly saw the best of the Soviet system, but it was a completely different life, that could be taken away by the system in an instant if you fell foul of it!

[cem_devecioglu]

capitilism quickly returns to blind, bullish complacency cem - crisis? what crisis? I'm alright Jack

That is the strange fact surrounding capitalism though BJ.  Capitalism has the inherent strength to always recover from any reversals, with individuals getting hurt, but the system as a whole surviving and moving forward!

Other systems tested by mankind, Communism for instance, do not have that resilience, and brings about an entire collaspe of the country; USSR! Cuba and North Korea to come

Lizzie , ask any Russian that which is better (who is living abroad under a capitalist system) and you will be surprised with their answers

my wife also who was living under a similiar system now experiencing my country , not pleased with that also.. :-/

I do Cem, most days; the young students from the former Soviet Block!  

They all state that the old communist system is not what they ever want to return, and their parents feel the same.  They do say however that their grandparents rather liked the "certainty" of the old system.  So many eggs, loaves of bread, milk, regularly every day / week, with no thought having to be given to any change and complication with their lives.  But, the Soviet system did not give them the freedoms they now enjoy, and the rising wealth of their families, and certainly their parents record how bad it all got in the last decades.  The grandparents certainly saw the best of the Soviet system, but it was a completely different life, that could be taken away by the system in an instant if you fell foul of it!

well, as a close neighbour I can say Russian girls that are really lucky that have money and chance to go university in UK is a minority imo..  :-/

But I have seen (witnessed) and read in newspapers many tragic cases here which they would choose their previous life before Gorbachov cock up (actually he was not alone and many others so they finally managed to bring the system on its knees)

and what I say actually is not for russia alone, most of east block countries men and women who go abroad for work have faced numerous problems that they can never predict and never faced similiar in their country..

[cem_devecioglu]

I'm afraid cant agree that..show me one example of communist country that exploited a latin , african or an asian country like the capitalist countries did ..


Are you suggesting that the former USSR didn't seek to have influence in Africa, the Middle East, and South America - including Cuba for their strategic and economic gain? 

>>influence and direct exploitation are different things imo.. they may have some trading benefits direct or indirect but never like the other..

Although China seems now to be a curious hybrid of a communist-capitalist-authoritarian state they have in the past, when inclined towards communism more than anything, sought to establish influence elsewhere in the world. Now, more than at any other time in their history, they seem to be plundering the world for their own purposes.

>>actually they are abusing their citizens for cheap labour.. but at that point we must remember that they dont have other countries under their hands or any bank like federal reserve to have direct money from raw paper..


Exploitation of others is in our nature as human beings sadly and whether it's dressed up as capitalism or communism matters little as the end result is the same.

>>actually communist system was the "answer" and solution of the nations that are deeply  exploited either by their masters or by external powers..
it was applied perfectly or not would be a good debate though.. however in world full of capitalist countries  trying every possible way to smash them of course would effect that structure..


In short you can't denigrate capitalism and ignore communism – their mutual desire to achieve results irrespective of the moral cost are two sides of the same coin.



imo, no..  today whole world economic system is tied .. remember china keeping nearly a trillion dollar usa govt papers and cant sell    under those circumstances you cant live on an island completely isolated from the world problems..its normal that  they will face problems.. but the reason is definitely not the system there.. (and the other factors I mentioned above)

I can't see how that is valid cem.  Yes the economic and financial structures world-wide are closer than ever (not necessarily a good thing in my view) but in the case of Cuba, the island hardly flourished in any positive way in the 'good' times before the current down-turn, so while the present world economic climate hasn't helped them, to blame it on their current difficulties is stretching things a bit.

>>they are also selling many items like sugar, fish, nickel, medicinal products, and fruit etc etc..
but the items they have to buy increase in price which we also faced in my country..


yep.. there is a saying in my language "if the bald have the recipe will apply for the self first"

That's a fine saying cem and in the case of Cuba particularly, if they had a viable system as a result of the popular revolution then perhaps many of those who made the dangerous journey to the US would have stayed at home to enjoy their quality of life.

>>they had more expectations then a poor country can give them.. what about the poor in usa.. some time ago they show the poor living in tunnels under the city Las Vegas :-?



I'm not saying that the capitalist system is the one and only path to follow - it has many faults, just like communism.  Both are held hostage to the human condition of individuals and nations looking out for number one.

[Dishevelled Den]

>>influence and direct exploitation are different things imo.. they may have some trading benefits direct or indirect but never like the other..


Oh I couldn't agree with that one cem.  The purpose in the USSR, for example, establishing links with the countries I mentioned was for imperialistic gain I would suggest (insofar as they invariably placed a puppet regime or sympathetic group in power to assist their goals) if that isn't exploitative I don’t know what is.

Don't forget the USSR actually placed nuclear weapons in Cuba in a strategic move against the US.  I would also consider this to be exploitive

>>actually they are abusing their citizens for cheap labour.. but at that point we must remember that they dont have other countries under their hands or any bank like federal reserve to have direct money from raw paper..

Yes they do indeed exploit their own people in the most brazen way cem and by doing so I would contend that they also have few qualms about doing the same thing to the people of the many countries they now have influence in (especially in Africa) through the governments of those countries.



>>actually communist system was the "answer" and solution of the nations that are deeply  exploited either by their masters or by external powers..
it was applied perfectly or not would be a good debate though.. however in world full of capitalist countries  trying every possible way to smash them of course would effect that structure..

Any system that has been abused to the extent of the communist one can never be seen as being the answer cem as by extension it's dictatorial and denies its citizenry the personal freedom so many of them seem to desire.


>>they are also selling many items like sugar, fish, nickel, medicinal products, and fruit etc etc..
but the items they have to buy increase in price which we also faced in my country..

That's the same the world over in the trading market.  What Cuba seems to lack is the machinery necessary to develop other means of trade as the infrastructure doesn’t seem to have progressed much beyond the agrarian due to an apparent lack of foresight and imagination in the regime.


>>they had more expectations then a poor country can give them.. what about the poor in usa.. some time ago they show the poor living in tunnels under the city Las Vegas :-?

I agree cem; it's a perversion that the most 'powerful' country in the world has so many deprived citizens of its own - whilst poor remains poor in any language, this fact doesn't seem to deter people leaving the country of birth for a better life elsewhere.

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[cem_devecioglu]

>>influence and direct exploitation are different things imo.. they may have some trading benefits direct or indirect but never like the other..


Oh I couldn't agree with that one cem.  The purpose in the USSR, for example, establishing links with the countries I mentioned was 1.for imperialistic gain I would suggest (insofar as they invariably placed a puppet regime or sympathetic group in power to assist their goals) if that 3.isn't exploitative I don’t know what is.

Don't forget the USSR actually placed nuclear weapons in Cuba in a strategic move against the US.  I would also consider this to be exploitive

1.  Zulu, you are still thinking/evaluating with capitalist worlds values..look at their senate , their debates , fights  you will hardly see an empire ..

2. Castro and Che were never puppets.. sympathetic group .. yes.. but looking in those times on a world divided into 2 groups and having cold war they need to support their back.. 

and for eastern block , some were, some not..and who didnt..

3. if that is exploitation then what we will say about direct money and commodity transfers thats done by capitalist system ? :-/

* and an additional info, now Usa is trying to intall some rockets here over Nato.. and pushing us into the corner 






>>actually they are abusing their citizens for cheap labour.. but at that point we must remember that they dont have other countries under their hands or any bank like federal reserve to have direct money from raw paper..

Yes they do indeed exploit their own people in the most brazen way cem and by doing so I would contend that they also have few qualms about doing the same thing to the people of the many countries they now have influence in (especially in Africa) through the governments of those countries.


not heard about it :-/

>>actually communist system was the "answer" and solution of the nations that are deeply  exploited either by their masters or by external powers..
it was applied perfectly or not would be a good debate though.. however in world full of capitalist countries  trying every possible way to smash them of course would effect that structure..

Any system that has been abused to the extent of the communist one can never be seen as being the answer cem as by extension it's dictatorial and denies its citizenry the personal freedom so many of them seem to desire.

yeah.. personal freedom..

now lets analyse what kind of freedom we do have..

if the system accepts you , gives you a job with some funny salary.. then sells you a house , a car
and other things.. then, you try to pay those whole your life working cheaply for them.. if you are clever
and lucky enough to build your own job you (may) earn more but still pay for those for long time

meanwhile , you have to vote for their muppets
and if not successful they will quickly find qanother one and advertise in media and you have to accept as this one is new

all their laws protect the system and the capital owner..

welcome to modern slavery..

now freedom.. yeah 2-4 weeks in a year if job conditions permit and you have money [/i]



>>they are also selling many items like sugar, fish, nickel, medicinal products, and fruit etc etc..
but the items they have to buy increase in price which we also faced in my country..

That's the same the world over in the trading market.  What Cuba seems to lack is the machinery necessary to develop other means of trade as the infrastructure doesn’t seem to have progressed much beyond the agrarian due to an apparent lack of foresight and imagination in the regime.


please check this link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Cuba


>>they had more expectations then a poor country can give them.. what about the poor in usa.. some time ago they show the poor living in tunnels under the city Las Vegas :-?

I agree cem; it's a perversion that the most 'powerful' country in the world has so many deprived citizens of its own - whilst poor remains poor in any language, this fact doesn't seem to deter people leaving the country of birth for a better life elsewhere.

[/quote]
[/quote]

[Dishevelled Den]

Zulu, you are still thinking/evaluating with capitalist worlds values..look at their senate , their debates , fights  you will hardly see an empire ..

I'm bound to think that way to an extent cem as I've been employed by the British Establishment since the age of 21 and I happen to believe that the system in use here, while far from perfect, is about as workable as it gets in this modern world.


2. Castro and Che were never puppets.. sympathetic group .. yes.. but looking in those times on a world divided into 2 groups and having cold war they need to support their back.. 

and for eastern block , some were, some not..and who didnt..

Just the type of sympathisers I referred to, however if you're saying that Cuba allowed herself to be manipulated in this way to give support to the USSR in their cold war against the US I couldn't agree with that.

In my view the quid pro quo for Soviet aid at the time was the acquiescence of the regime to Soviet 'requests' to base missiles on the island.

The phrase 'there's no such thing as a free lunch' also works well in Russian.

3. if that is exploitation then what we will say about direct money and commodity transfers thats done by capitalist system ? :-/


But that's what the system does - that's its nature, its purpose.  Capitalism's fortunes ebb and flow but it can recover from setback as the individuals and institutions that operate within its boundaries have the freedom, imagination and incentive to go forward to achieve new things.

The communist system as operated in the well known countries (former USSR, China, North Korea and so on) led to stagnancy and deprivation for the majority of people who lived under its influence (except for the ruling elite of course)

When the former base communist systems had been abandoned in Soviet Russia and China and a quasi capitalist/free market system installed as a replacement we suddenly see an upturn in their fortunes, however no such change can be seen in the fortunes of, say North Korea and Cuba as they both have retained the dogmatic model of communism as it once was.

This leads me to believe that communism didn't work in the very countries that practiced and attempted to perfect it.  Why? -  Perhaps because it's because it’s a fundamentally flawed system where the masses are controlled by the few - rather like the capitalist system.

* and an additional info, now Usa is trying to intall some rockets here over Nato.. and pushing us into the corner 

That is as questionable an act as the Soviet move was in 1961.

yeah.. personal freedom..

now lets analyse what kind of freedom we do have..

if the system accepts you , gives you a job with some funny salary.. then sells you a house , a car
and other things.. then, you try to pay those whole your life working cheaply for them.. if you are clever
and lucky enough to build your own job you (may) earn more but still pay for those for long time


But that is how most things work in the world cem.

If an individual expects to build a life for themselves they must work for it, someone must employ them and some place must exist where those individuals can live and enjoy the fruits of their labour.

Under the communist banner many of the same hopes and desires depended solely on whether the individual was either a member of the party, whether their faces fitted in, whether or not they knew of or were related to anyone in the ruling elite or whether or not they were able to keep their noses clean by not questioning anything that their masters did.

meanwhile , you have to vote for their muppets
and if not successful they will quickly find qanother one and advertise in media and you have to accept as this one is new

At least the free vote (insofar as it can be) is available to the masses should they wish to use it.

Can the same be said for the old-style communist states?

all their laws protect the system and the capital owner..

welcome to modern slavery..

Just as the system was protected within communism, only in that case if anyone spoke out against the system they either ended up in the Gulag or were killed.

now freedom.. yeah 2-4 weeks in a year if job conditions permit and you have money >:

How else would you expect to avail of these things cem, should the state pay for them instead?

please check this link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Cuba

That's a long piece to digest for this reply cem but I will read it over with interest.

[cem_devecioglu]

"I'm bound to think that way to an extent cem as I've been employed by the British Establishment since the age of 21 and I happen to believe that the system in use here, while far from perfect, is about as workable as it gets in this modern world"

>>
I'm afraid past experiences and the govt precautions on recurring problems proved the situation to be the reverse

"Just the type of sympathisers I referred to, however if you're saying that Cuba allowed herself to be manipulated in this way to give support to the USSR in their cold war against the US I couldn't agree with that."

>>
actually this was not an allowance to be manipulated..  it was a precaution to stop US invasion..which they already tried before and failed..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis

however they were successful to kill Che in Bolivia
after whole intelligence unit ran for him..

here the question is : if the system were that successful why want to kill Che which soon will be failed in their opinion ?

"In my view the quid pro quo for Soviet aid at the time was the acquiescence of the regime to Soviet 'requests' to base missiles on the island.

>>
The phrase 'there's no such thing as a free lunch' also works well in Russian."


noun, plural quid pro quos or quids pro quo
Something given or taken in exchange for something else.

Etymology
From Latin quid (what) pro (for) quo (what), something for something.

Usage
"As is now known, `back-channel' negotiations achieved a quid pro quo. In return for Russian offensive missiles not being placed in Cuba, President Kennedy would remove Jupiter missiles from Turkey and promise not to topple Fidel Castro's communist regime militarily." — Ronald H Carpenter, When the Right Words Counted, Naval History (Annapolis, Maryland), Oct 2001.

and of course there still the question remains how  they stop the ships in internationals waters ?


"individuals and institutions that operate within its boundaries have the freedom, imagination and incentive to go forward to achieve new things."

>>


freedom word I'm afraid does not reflect its meaning if used with this system..

of course the situations under capitalism is widely different .. in UK you may not feel that bad, but in other countries the violent face is frequently visible..
and sorry to remind even in UK some long years ago your fathers and olders like him faced the worse side..
for long years of struggle in British lands bring UK to this point which also must be noted..
 

"The communist system as operated in the well known countries (former USSR, China, North Korea and so on) led to stagnancy and deprivation for the majority of people who lived under its influence (except for the ruling elite of course"

>>
as similiar in Cuba example , those countries already have those conditions which they tried to solve with their new system..  if not, their future were already be darkened by capitalist system as seen in many examples of the past..

my country in the past divided , invaded with real military force..we were lucky we could survive.. but the price was really high.. and now still whole country  is in struggle.. because for capitalist system its never enough, it always wants more and more..

believe me I can tell many pages of stories of people living the trouble just because that monster system ..

"This leads me to believe that communism didn't work in the very countries that practiced and attempted to perfect it.  Why? -  Perhaps because it's because it’s a fundamentally flawed system where the masses are controlled by the few - rather like the capitalist system. "

>>
nope.. while capitalist system is trying to squeeze their neck  and they were spending most of their time and money (for weapons)  to defend their self against
capitalism they dont have the luck 

[cem_devecioglu]

"If an individual expects to build a life for themselves they must work for it, someone must employ them and some place must exist where those individuals can live and enjoy the fruits of their labour."

>>

yes.. but can you tell me what is the real price for a specific commodity ? how you define it ?

for example in a period where nobody read books
and everyone want to watch football you can say that writers must collect garbage and footballers live in luxury.. do you think thats a fair system ?





"Under the communist banner many of the same hopes and desires depended solely on whether the individual was either a member of the party, whether their faces fitted in, whether or not they knew of or were related to anyone in the ruling elite or whether or not they were able to keep their noses clean by not questioning anything that their masters did. "

>> unfortunately thats the problem of human nature that the system cant be blamed for..

"Just as the system was protected within communism, only in that case if anyone spoke out against the system they either ended up in the Gulag or were killed."

>>
yeah .. Stalin.. #1 example..  the bloody idiot who signed peace treaty with Hitler..

as I said human weakness cant be blamed on the system..

[Dishevelled Den]

>>

yes.. but can you tell me what is the real price for a specific commodity ? how you define it ?


What a person is prepared to pay for it or what they consider it to be worth.

for example in a period where nobody read books
and everyone want to watch football you can say that writers must collect garbage and footballers live in luxury.. do you think thats a fair system ?


That failing isn't exclusive to the western system cem, there's just as many injustices and perverse arrangements within communism.



>> unfortunately thats the problem of human nature that the system cant be blamed for..

Would the same not apply to the capitalist system cem?

>>
yeah .. Stalin.. #1 example..  the bloody idiot who signed peace treaty with Hitler..

as I said human weakness cant be blamed on the system..

And so, as I said before, you can't denigrate the capitalist model we use here in the West as the commumist system is just as liable to be manipulated by those who have a personal agenda over that of the state.

The success, or otherwise, of either system depends on people not putting their interests ahead of those of the state.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

>>

yes.. but can you tell me what is the real price for a specific commodity ? how you define it ?


What a person is prepared to pay for it or what they consider it to be worth.

for example in a period where nobody read books
and everyone want to watch football you can say that writers must collect garbage and footballers live in luxury.. do you think thats a fair system ?


That failing isn't exclusive to the western system cem, there's just as many injustices and perverse arrangements within communism.



>> unfortunately thats the problem of human nature that the system cant be blamed for..

Would the same not apply to the capitalist system cem?

>>
yeah .. Stalin.. #1 example..  the bloody idiot who signed peace treaty with Hitler..

as I said human weakness cant be blamed on the system..

And so, as I said before, you can't denigrate the capitalist model we use here in the West as the commumist system is just as liable to be manipulated by those who have a personal agenda over that of the state.

The success, or otherwise, of either system depends on people not putting their interests ahead of those of the state.

I have been watching this interesting debate between Zulu and Cem.

I would simply add to this point that of course both Stalin and Hitler was the state.  In the western democracy that cannot happen.