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[Ken T]

What all the proponents of wind and tidal power are missing brushing under the carpet is that energy supply that varies with the wind and tides isn't actually much use to our national grid as it stands today. It just promotes less efficient use of the fossil fuels that have to be on standby for when the wind stops blowing. 

Until we can dump non-critical loads from the grid during peak periods and/or store more energy between peaks unpredictable renewable energy is a chocolate fireguard.

A workable "smart grid" is a precursor to any of these schemes, hence the need for more nuclear ASAP.

Kevin

We can. A recent program on Scotland's use of water power showed several pumped storage systems in current use. I believe the french system can hold back the water until needed. And regards cost it has paid back its constructional costs and is cheaper than nuclear (1.8c per kWh, versus 2.5c per kWh for nuclear).

I'm not saying we chould immediately put a windmill in everybody's back garden, I think we should have a mix of different technologies, so we are not reliant on any one, and can choose which to develop. That way we can take advantage of any new technologies as they come along.  I know windmills are fairly ugly things, but Salter's duck has the advantage of cutting down the waves to size which I am sure could be put to good use in various places around our coastline.

The more development we have in this country the less dependent we are on foreign suppliers who often have alterior motives for the things they do. A strong electrical generation research program would help to halt the decline in UK engineering.

Ken

[Ken T]

A couple of other ways of generating power/heat.

I wonder how much heat you would get from a heat pump installed in the back garden ?. This might be a better way of heating your home.

How about microturbines' combined heat and power (CHP) technology for providing energy to far off places ?. To give Deb's power must involve a lot of infrastructure. If she had a microturbine, she could generate power as and when she needed it.

We don't always need a new way of generating terawatts, a few thousand local plants generating megawatts or even kilowatts would do just as well ( local generation = low transmision losses).

Ken
 

[Dishevelled Den]

The more development we have in this country the less dependent we are on foreign suppliers who often have alterior motives for the things they do. A strong electrical generation research program would help to halt the decline in UK engineering.

Ken

You'll certainly get no argument from me on that one Ken.

We would need however a government with the balls and determination to put this country first and foremost.

[V6 CDX-er]

The more development we have in this country the less dependent we are on foreign suppliers who often have alterior motives for the things they do. A strong electrical generation research program would help to halt the decline in UK engineering.

Ken

You'll certainly get no argument from me on that one Ken.

We would need however a government with the balls and determination to put this country first and foremost.

In which case Zulu, we are, and are highly likely to continue to be, frankly, screwed 

[Kevin Wood]

What all the proponents of wind and tidal power are missing brushing under the carpet is that energy supply that varies with the wind and tides isn't actually much use to our national grid as it stands today. It just promotes less efficient use of the fossil fuels that have to be on standby for when the wind stops blowing. 

Until we can dump non-critical loads from the grid during peak periods and/or store more energy between peaks unpredictable renewable energy is a chocolate fireguard.

A workable "smart grid" is a precursor to any of these schemes, hence the need for more nuclear ASAP.

Kevin

We can. A recent program on Scotland's use of water power showed several pumped storage systems in current use. I believe the french system can hold back the water until needed. And regards cost it has paid back its constructional costs and is cheaper than nuclear (1.8c per kWh, versus 2.5c per kWh for nuclear).

I'm not saying we chould immediately put a windmill in everybody's back garden, I think we should have a mix of different technologies, so we are not reliant on any one, and can choose which to develop. That way we can take advantage of any new technologies as they come along.  I know windmills are fairly ugly things, but Salter's duck has the advantage of cutting down the waves to size which I am sure could be put to good use in various places around our coastline.

The more development we have in this country the less dependent we are on foreign suppliers who often have alterior motives for the things they do. A strong electrical generation research program would help to halt the decline in UK engineering.

Ken

Agreed, but we would need storage on a much greater scale than the current projects, which really just provide some load for the less than agile plant during the off-peak times in the daily cycle. They wouldn't cope with a few days or even weeks without any wind, for example, nor with potentially much larger daily variations in surplus / surfeit that would be inevitable with a significant contribution from wind power.

I was speaking to a friend who works at NG's control centre and he said wind power is the bain of their life and taking the energy (which the nut munchers are trying to compel them to do whenever it's available) simply results in fossil fuel plant idling waiting to cover for a lull in the wind.

Kevin

[Varche]

Bring back the Victorian engineers.

Power from the sea doesn't have to be just from turbines. With the so called decline in fishing we have plenty of spare harbour space. Generators using the rise and fall could be fixed to the piers of every coastal town. Heat pumps from land/sea would deliver tons of energy. I think we are just lacking a bit in imagination.

There is a pumped storage scheme in Wales. Why not have dozens more? Make them into tourist attractions.

Something I have been meaning to comment on as well. People who say Windmill generators are ugly.... what about all the wretched NG pylons. They would never have been allowed if being contemplated today!

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Bring back the Victorian engineers.

Power from the sea doesn't have to be just from turbines. With the so called decline in fishing we have plenty of spare harbour space. Generators using the rise and fall could be fixed to the piers of every coastal town. Heat pumps from land/sea would deliver tons of energy. I think we are just lacking a bit in imagination.

There is a pumped storage scheme in Wales. Why not have dozens more? Make them into tourist attractions.

Something I have been meaning to comment on as well. People who say Windmill generators are ugly.... what about all the wretched NG pylons. They would never have been allowed if being contemplated today!

Now you are talking Varche!!

Brunel and Stephenson & Son, to name just two of the great mechanical engineers, would soon solve our power issues!

In later years Gresley, Bullied, Churchward / Collet and Stanier would also have advanced electrical generation 8-) 8-) 8-)

[Kevin Wood]

Now you are talking Varche!!

Brunel and Stephenson & Son, to name just two of the great mechanical engineers, would soon solve our power issues!

In later years Gresley, Bullied, Churchward / Collet and Stanier would also have advanced electrical generation 8-) 8-) 8-)

Agreed. I would love to see what some of these engineers would be able to achieve with the tools at our disposal today.

Kevin

[CaptainZok]

Now you are talking Varche!!

Brunel and Stephenson & Son, to name just two of the great mechanical engineers, would soon solve our power issues!

In later years Gresley, Bullied, Churchward / Collet and Stanier would also have advanced electrical generation 8-) 8-) 8-)

Agreed. I would love to see what some of these engineers would be able to achieve with the tools at our disposal today.

Kevin

Not much sadly, the elf & safetee brigade would hamstring them in a heartbeat.

[Kevin Wood]

Not much sadly, the elf & safetee brigade would hamstring them in a heartbeat.

Agreed. Not to mention the environment stasi. You want to do what? burn coal!

Kevin

[CaptainZok]

Not much sadly, the elf & safetee brigade would hamstring them in a heartbeat.

Agreed. Not to mention the environment stasi. You want to do what? burn coal!

Kevin

Indeed Kev, from here I can just about hear Mr Dibnah rotating in Tonge Cemetery.
Probably the best place for him too, if he were still with us he'd be on remand for breaching numerous elf & safetee and envirobollix regulations with his antics.

[Nickbat]

No other country in the world has an energy policy so utterly mad and unworkable. Yet all our major political parties are equally locked into the same self-deceiving bubble of unreality. Any final hope that we might be saved from this absurdly unnecessary disaster seemed last week to vanish, even as the ice and the snow closed in.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/8211944/Chris-Huhne-has-a-blueprint-for-a-green-cold-dark-Britain.html

Sadly, Mr Booker, you have summed up the situation precisely.