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Author Topic: ...and now, Sheila with the weather where you are  (Read 1933 times)

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Banjax

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...and now, Sheila with the weather where you are
« on: 22 March 2011, 14:55:51 »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12815687


and i thought Glenn Beck was nuts  ;D
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Dishevelled Den

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Re: ...and now, Sheila with the weather where you are
« Reply #1 on: 22 March 2011, 16:55:32 »

 ;D ;D ;D Splendid. 8-)
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: ...and now, Sheila with the weather where you are
« Reply #2 on: 22 March 2011, 17:14:28 »

 :-? :-?

but more important what he says is correct.. if a tyrant doesnt trust his people , he will not give fire arms ;)
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Lizzie_Zoom

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Re: ...and now, Sheila with the weather where you are
« Reply #3 on: 22 March 2011, 17:44:59 »

Quote
:-? :-?

but more important what he says is correct.. if a tyrant doesnt trust his people , he will not give fire arms ;)


Hitler did!  In those last few months and weeks in Berlin during March and April 1945 he (his commanders) were issuing any kind of weapon they could find to old men, young boys, and girls, in fact anyone who was prepared to defend Berlin.  At the time he was ranting over how the German people had let him down, betrayed him, were cowards, and deserved the fight to the death! >:( >:( >:(

I am very afraid that Gaddafi could go the same way, as he and his sons have already threatened.  A fight to the death until everyone is dead.  He is of course using the now classic dictators 'weapon' of the human shield.  He will fight to the end no matter the cost as Hitler did, and Stalin would have done also if the situation had been reversed in Moscow >:( >:( >:( :'( :'( :'( :'(

God help the Libyans!
« Last Edit: 22 March 2011, 17:52:11 by Lizzie_Zoom »
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Mart280

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Re: ...and now, Sheila with the weather where you are
« Reply #4 on: 22 March 2011, 18:23:12 »

Reminds me of comical Ali
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: ...and now, Sheila with the weather where you are
« Reply #5 on: 23 March 2011, 10:05:21 »

Quote
Quote
:-? :-?

but more important what he says is correct.. if a tyrant doesnt trust his people , he will not give fire arms ;)


Hitler did!  In those last few months and weeks in Berlin during March and April 1945 he (his commanders) were issuing any kind of weapon they could find to old men, young boys, and girls, in fact anyone who was prepared to defend Berlin.  At the time he was ranting over how the German people had let him down, betrayed him, were cowards, and deserved the fight to the death! >:( >:( >:(

I am very afraid that Gaddafi could go the same way, as he and his sons have already threatened.  A fight to the death until everyone is dead.  He is of course using the now classic dictators 'weapon' of the human shield.  He will fight to the end no matter the cost as Hitler did, and Stalin would have done also if the situation had been reversed in Moscow >:( >:( >:( :'( :'( :'( :'(

God help the Libyans!

no need for God.. dont bomb them ;D :y
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Dishevelled Den

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Re: ...and now, Sheila with the weather where you are
« Reply #6 on: 23 March 2011, 10:08:32 »

Quote

no need for God.. dont bomb them ;D :y

I must agree with that. :y
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: ...and now, Sheila with the weather where you are
« Reply #7 on: 23 March 2011, 11:43:29 »

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Quote

no need for God.. dont bomb them ;D :y

I must agree with that. :y


 :y :y :y
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Lizzie_Zoom

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Re: ...and now, Sheila with the weather where you are
« Reply #8 on: 23 March 2011, 14:35:56 »

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Quote

no need for God.. dont bomb them ;D :y

I must agree with that. :y


But Gaddafi is doing that himself!! ::) ::) ::) :'( :'(
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: ...and now, Sheila with the weather where you are
« Reply #9 on: 23 March 2011, 14:42:26 »

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Quote
Quote

no need for God.. dont bomb them ;D :y

I must agree with that. :y


But Gaddafi is doing that himself!! ::) ::) ::) :'( :'(

that bloody idiot was sitting on his arse for last 40 years.. guess who provoke him ;D ;D
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Dishevelled Den

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Re: ...and now, Sheila with the weather where you are
« Reply #10 on: 23 March 2011, 17:30:26 »

Quote
Quote
Quote

no need for God.. dont bomb them ;D :y

I must agree with that. :y


But Gaddafi is doing that himself!! ::) ::) ::) :'( :'(


Without doubt Lizzie but in this age I think we have to face the fact that there doesn’t any longer seem to be a 'Western' answer to problems in that region.

The 'West' was able to exploit the region (and, by extension, its peoples) quite successfully in the past when a fair proportion of the native peoples were, for the most part, uneducated and led by pro-Western regimes.

We have our current standard of living partly because of this - and we should be thankful for it of course, but in this new age I don't think it can be a case of business as usual any longer.

People out there are becoming better educated and less inclined to accept the status quo and, as a result, must be allowed to seek their own solutions to the many problems they're experiencing.

This will not be without difficulty for us (in the strategic sense) but I don't see any other realistic answer to it.

The military card has been well and truly played in the region and unless we wish to engage in a protracted total war(s) to eradicate to most vociferous opposition to our goals (which is all but impossible) we will have to re-assess our approach in dealing with the Arab world and its vast supply of the substance we all depend upon so much (for the time being) for our ability to survive and prosper in this neck of the woods.
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Lizzie_Zoom

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Re: ...and now, Sheila with the weather where you are
« Reply #11 on: 23 March 2011, 17:45:09 »

Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote

no need for God.. dont bomb them ;D :y

I must agree with that. :y


But Gaddafi is doing that himself!! ::) ::) ::) :'( :'(


Without doubt Lizzie but in this age I think we have to face the fact that there doesn’t any longer seem to be a 'Western' answer to problems in that region.

The 'West' was able to exploit the region (and, by extension, its peoples) quite successfully in the past when a fair proportion of the native peoples were, for the most part, uneducated and led by pro-Western regimes.

We have our current standard of living partly because of this - and we should be thankful for it of course, but in this new age I don't think it can be a case of business as usual any longer.

People out there are becoming better educated and less inclined to accept the status quo and, as a result, must be allowed to seek their own solutions to the many problems they're experiencing.

This will not be without difficulty for us (in the strategic sense) but I don't see any other realistic answer to it.

The military card has been well and truly played in the region and unless we wish to engage in a protracted total war(s) to eradicate to most vociferous opposition to our goals (which is all but impossible) we will have to re-assess our approach in dealing with the Arab world and its vast supply of the substance we all depend upon so much (for the time being) for our ability to survive and prosper in this neck of the woods.


I agree with all that you say Z, but we must not forget that in this instance, and a real change to past policy apart from possibly with Kuwait, we are only in the skies above Libya because Libyans out there who want freedom and protection from Gaddafi have asked the international community for help.  The well educated Libyans you correctly mention, but who are also here in the UK, have also pleaded for international assistance.

There is not a Libyan or Arab generally, nor a country within the UN who does not understand that when you ask for international military assistance you are really asking for  USA and major European military power help.  No one else can or wants to provide it, so they know what they are asking for. 

It is right and proper that we are giving them what they want, but it is very interesting to note that all the political leaders of the countries giving that assistance, the USA in particular, are being very cautious and continually discussing the rights and wrongs of what they can do.  That includes stating that there could be a point when Gaddafi's forces are no longer in a position to attack "the rebels", and the latter are gaining significant ground, for the Allies to withdraw their air power.

So lessons have been learnt from the Iraqi situation. :y :y
« Last Edit: 23 March 2011, 17:45:56 by Lizzie_Zoom »
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Lizzie_Zoom

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Re: ...and now, Sheila with the weather where you are
« Reply #12 on: 23 March 2011, 18:25:49 »

Quote
Quote

I agree with all that you say Z, but we must not forget that in this instance, and a real change to past policy apart from possibly with Kuwait, we are only in the skies above Libya because Libyans out there who want freedom and protection from Gaddafi have asked the international community for help.  The well educated Libyans you correctly mention, but who are also here in the UK, have also pleaded for international assistance.

There is not a Libyan or Arab generally, nor a country within the UN who does not understand that when you ask for international military assistance you are really asking for  USA and major European military power help.  No one else can or wants to provide it, so they know what they are asking for. 

It is right and proper that we are giving them what they want, but it is very interesting to note that all the political leaders of the countries giving that assistance, the USA in particular, are being very cautious and continually discussing the rights and wrongs of what they can do.  That includes stating that there could be a point when Gaddafi's forces are no longer in a position to attack "the rebels", and the latter are gaining significant ground, for the Allies to withdraw their air power.

So lessons have been learnt from the Iraqi situation. :y :y

I'm still concerned about this Lizzie - aside from the way we're presently using military power in the region - invited or not.

It appears to me that there hasn't been adequate thought given to a clearly defined command structure for the operation.

Along with the apparent absence of a well planned exit strategy I can foresee things getting unnecessarily complicated as the arguments about just who should assume responsibility for the conduct of the operation continue to develop.

As things stand I think this has been a half-assed attempt to deal with the situation using air power alone when, in reality, ground forces are the only viable resource to apply in the bid to stop one group eradicating the other.  There’s no convenient, clean way to do this.

I have a feeling that this whole thing will blow up in the faces of those - who made the case for military intervention - in the UN, the EU and NATO when they suddenly become aware that the US is bowing out due to (amongst other things) the hostile reaction to its involvement of the situation up to the moment.

The longer Western military power is used there the more likely it is that the situation will run out of control - aside from the far from insubstantial cost of running the operation in its present form.


But in the absence of agreement by the Arab nations, and even more importantly the lack of appetite on the part of the Allies, "boots on the gound" is not going to happen, and that must be a good thing.  It would be all round totally unacceptable.

No, the current policy must be only to stop Gaddafi threatening and killing his own people, and giving those Libyans wanted democracy a free hand to secure it.  I have heard no military head, or political leader, who wants anything but this, and ensure there is no 'mission creep'.

As for the command structure, well that will be sorted, but once more it sounds as though no country, least of all the USA, Britain and France want that millstone, with the dangers it presents, and can only hasten withdrawal of our air forces once the time is right :y :y

As for the cost; we already have the weapons, aircraft and back up command.  This is, like the Falklands, a great training opportunity for those in the military and I suspect they are using it to the full!  System, procedure, testing of hardware, not least the Typhoon aircraft, and putting pilots along with groundcrew through operational experience must all be considered money well spent if Britain, and Western countries, are going to work together.  They are continually preparing for a war that we hope never comes, but all this operational tasking and practice is very good indeed for our military health :y :y
« Last Edit: 23 March 2011, 18:33:26 by Lizzie_Zoom »
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Dishevelled Den

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Re: ...and now, Sheila with the weather where you are
« Reply #13 on: 23 March 2011, 18:38:08 »

Quote

But in the absence of agreement by the Arab nations, and even more importantly the lack of appetite on the part of the Allies, "boots on the gound" is not going to happen, and that must be a good thing.  It would be all round totally unacceptable.

No, the current policy must be only to stop Gaddafi threatening and killing his own people, and giving those Libyans wanted democracy a free hand to secure it.  I have heard no military head, or political leader, who wants anything but this, and ensure there is no 'mission creep'.

As for the command structure, well that will be sorted, but once more it sounds as though no country, least of all the USA, Britain and France want that millstone, with the dangers it presents, and can only hasten withdrawal of our air forces once the time is right :y :y


Oh I do agree that few individuals want this to develop - rightly so - but things seldom go to plan in that part of the world and, as far as I can see, if we continue to use military power, for whatever reason, we will get bitten for it.

The question is, will we still have the determination to carry on when the civilian casualties (as a result of our actions) begin to build up and local hostilities develop which will undoubtly challange our involvement?
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Lizzie_Zoom

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Re: ...and now, Sheila with the weather where you are
« Reply #14 on: 23 March 2011, 18:44:31 »

Quote
Quote

But in the absence of agreement by the Arab nations, and even more importantly the lack of appetite on the part of the Allies, "boots on the ground" is not going to happen, and that must be a good thing.  It would be all round totally unacceptable.

No, the current policy must be only to stop Gaddafi threatening and killing his own people, and giving those Libyans wanted democracy a free hand to secure it.  I have heard no military head, or political leader, who wants anything but this, and ensure there is no 'mission creep'.

As for the command structure, well that will be sorted, but once more it sounds as though no country, least of all the USA, Britain and France want that millstone, with the dangers it presents, and can only hasten withdrawal of our air forces once the time is right :y :y


Oh I do agree that few individuals want this to develop - rightly so - but things seldom go to plan in that part of the world and, as far as I can see, if we continue to use military power, for whatever reason, we will get bitten for it.

The question is, will we still have the determination to carry on when the civilian casualties (as a result of our actions) begin to build up and local hostilities develop which will undoubtly challange our involvement?


The simple answer to that is Z, "NO"!  Once the Libyan people / democratic / rebel groups do not want us the mood is set for us to pull out.  I really do not see any doubt in that based on the term of the UN resolution, the coalition sentiments, let alone the feelings of the Arab element.  We are there for only one purpose; for Gaddafi to be stopped from threatening his own people.  No one is saying any different, or wants any other result. :y :y
« Last Edit: 23 March 2011, 18:45:14 by Lizzie_Zoom »
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