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[Dishevelled Den]

A further thought for consideration....

For example ... the SLR 7.62 round of the 70's could pass straight through 2 sheep at one mile, even if the sheep were 2 feet apart, such was the effect of the muzzle velocity and the jacketing.

This will reduce the possibility of secondary victims considerably.

Indeed so Nige, when that round (in its full NATO configuration) was first used in Northern Ireland it over penetrated the target in some cases and broke through the walls of dwelling houses in the immediate environment of the contact.

A ‘de-tuned round was soon issued to try to prevent this.

The L1A1 SLR (self loading rifle) was a splendid weapon, carried not only by military forces but also by the police in Northern Ireland, but was ultimately a weapon best suited to the battle field rather than the streets of an urban environment.

[cem_devecioglu]

some other opinions
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.148580-Poll-Whats-your-opinion-on-Dum-Dum-Bullets

[cem_devecioglu]

A further thought for consideration....

For example ... the SLR 7.62 round of the 70's could pass straight through 2 sheep at one mile, even if the sheep were 2 feet apart, such was the effect of the muzzle velocity and the jacketing.

This will reduce the possibility of secondary victims considerably.

Indeed so Nige, when that round (in its full NATO configuration) was first used in Northern Ireland it over penetrated the target in some cases and broke through the walls of dwelling houses in the immediate environment of the contact.

A ‘de-tuned round was soon issued to try to prevent this.

The L1A1 SLR (self loading rifle) was a splendid weapon, carried not only by military forces but also by the police in Northern Ireland, but was ultimately a weapon best suited to the battle field rather than the streets of an urban environment.

Den, when police start to use those what is your guess about terrorists ? do you think they will still use  standard guns ?

imo its just like increasing the bets, there will be no end..

[Dishevelled Den]

A further thought for consideration....

For example ... the SLR 7.62 round of the 70's could pass straight through 2 sheep at one mile, even if the sheep were 2 feet apart, such was the effect of the muzzle velocity and the jacketing.

This will reduce the possibility of secondary victims considerably.

Indeed so Nige, when that round (in its full NATO configuration) was first used in Northern Ireland it over penetrated the target in some cases and broke through the walls of dwelling houses in the immediate environment of the contact.

A ‘de-tuned round was soon issued to try to prevent this.

The L1A1 SLR (self loading rifle) was a splendid weapon, carried not only by military forces but also by the police in Northern Ireland, but was ultimately a weapon best suited to the battle field rather than the streets of an urban environment.

Den, when police start to use those what is your guess about terrorists ? do you think they will still use  standard guns ?

imo its just like increasing the bets, there will be no end..

Yes, that can happen to a certain extent cem.

It has been obvious however in the current campaign by 'Muslim' fundamentalists that the choice of weapon to be used by such groups is one that afforded the maximum amount of damage.

This must be countered by the authorities, so it’s easy to see how an escalation in the type of weapons deployed by the authorities, to deal with an ever evolving threat, is sadly inevitable.

I fear that we are beyond consideration for the undesirable consequences of having heavily armed police on the streets as long as there are individuals or groups who will stop at nothing to inflict deadly harm upon our people.

[aaronjb]

A further thought for consideration....

For example ... the SLR 7.62 round of the 70's could pass straight through 2 sheep at one mile, even if the sheep were 2 feet apart, such was the effect of the muzzle velocity and the jacketing.

This will reduce the possibility of secondary victims considerably.

Indeed so Nige, when that round (in its full NATO configuration) was first used in Northern Ireland it over penetrated the target in some cases and broke through the walls of dwelling houses in the immediate environment of the contact.

A ‘de-tuned round was soon issued to try to prevent this.

The L1A1 SLR (self loading rifle) was a splendid weapon, carried not only by military forces but also by the police in Northern Ireland, but was ultimately a weapon best suited to the battle field rather than the streets of an urban environment.

Den, when police start to use those what is your guess about terrorists ? do you think they will still use  standard guns ?

imo its just like increasing the bets, there will be no end..

Den's talking about the 1970s - those rounds were being used, then, in response to the fact that the IRA were already blowing people up

He's also saying that they quickly abandoned those rounds because of the danger to those in the general vicinity - i.e. a round that stops inside the person you are shooting at is better than a round that exits them and gets the innocent bystander behind him in the head.

[edit] Beaten to it anyway..

[Sixstring]

Apart from the information given above by Den, in the 80's in NI the troops that WERE issued with these "compression Trauma rounds" (read Dum-Dums) were also instructed to use them in the body cavity and particularly heart and lung shots if possible, and when used in the "sniper" scenario a head shot would without fail remove the entire head above the jaw...............not nice for a bystander or hostage to see, but threat removed at one shot. It was NEVER used in a wound situation, only for an instant cessation of threat, and  could only be issued by the artificier on special chit from the C.O.

[cem_devecioglu]

A further thought for consideration....

For example ... the SLR 7.62 round of the 70's could pass straight through 2 sheep at one mile, even if the sheep were 2 feet apart, such was the effect of the muzzle velocity and the jacketing.

This will reduce the possibility of secondary victims considerably.

Indeed so Nige, when that round (in its full NATO configuration) was first used in Northern Ireland it over penetrated the target in some cases and broke through the walls of dwelling houses in the immediate environment of the contact.

A ‘de-tuned round was soon issued to try to prevent this.

The L1A1 SLR (self loading rifle) was a splendid weapon, carried not only by military forces but also by the police in Northern Ireland, but was ultimately a weapon best suited to the battle field rather than the streets of an urban environment.

Den, when police start to use those what is your guess about terrorists ? do you think they will still use  standard guns ?

imo its just like increasing the bets, there will be no end..

Yes, that can happen to a certain extent cem.

It has been obvious however in the current campaign by 'Muslim' fundamentalists that the choice of weapon to be used by such groups is one that afforded the maximum amount of damage.

This must be countered by the authorities, so it’s easy to see how an escalation in the type of weapons deployed by the authorities, to deal with an ever evolving threat, is sadly inevitable.

I fear that we are beyond consideration for the undesirable consequences of having heavily armed police on the streets as long as there are individuals or groups who will stop at nothing to inflict deadly harm upon our people.

they generally tend to use explosives in which those guns are useless..

but its a fact that if you carry something with you , you will use it.. and I'm afraid the police can use those things even in ordinary cases after some time..

[Dishevelled Den]

Apart from the information given above by Den, in the 80's in NI the troops that WERE issued with these "compression Trauma rounds" (read Dum-Dums) were also instructed to use them in the body cavity and particularly heart and lung shots if possible, and when used in the "sniper" scenario a head shot would without fail remove the entire head above the jaw...............not nice for a bystander or hostage to see, but threat removed at one shot. It was NEVER used in a wound situation, only for an instant cessation of threat, and  could only be issued by the artificier on special chit from the C.O.

I always remember the mantra - 'two in the body, one in the head then you're sure he's dead'.

The purpose in placing two shots into the central thoracic region is to let the BFT (blunt force trauma) developed as a result of this take the target down. 

Even when using convention ammunition (fully or semi jacketed rounds) the take down is very effective in the vast majority of cases, although it will be difficult to follow with the head shot unless the target is sufficiently close to the shooter.

[Dishevelled Den]

they generally tend to use explosives in which those guns are useless..

but its a fact that if you carry something with you , you will use it.. and I'm afraid the police can use those things even in ordinary cases after some time..

Sadly, cem, this is a violent world we now inhabit - would that there was no need for weapons to be carried by anyone, but I think we must now recognise that humanity has embarked on a path to potential destruction

[Vamps]

A question for Cem, are Turkish Police armed?

[albitz]

Unusually, I tend to lean towards Cems point of view on this one. I think we need more of the old fashioned bobbies on patrol in Britain, rather than a para militery style police force.
The terrorist threat is a bit of a red herring imo. Incidents are few and far between, and the only way to combat their operations imo, is to have inside intelligence and then nip them in the bud before they get out in public places to do their dirty deeds.
There have been too many incidents in recent years when firearms officers have shot and killed people when the evidence suggests that the situation could have been resolved in a more peaceful manner.
I still think the execution of the Brazilian chap on the train was an absolute disgrace, and that someone should have been held to account over it.
Who would ever have thought that the police in London would be armed with firearms with dumdum bullets loaded in them. It cant be a step forward, can it ? :-/

[feeutfo]

I guess it's a case of the correct tool for the job, tazer, plastic bullets, conventional, hollow point. Non lethal to lethal according to severity.

Training and application in the correct situation. But would you want the job? Faced with an explosion in your face in a crowded area, or shoot an individual dead knowing he could possibly be innocent and all the shite that will follow, no pressure, just don't break it up.

Hands up, who wants the job?

[Lazydocker]

I still think the execution of the Brazilian chap on the train was an absolute disgrace, and that someone should have been held to account over it.

Sorry Albs, but the chap was an illegal being chased by armed police. They told him to stop, he didn't... End of the day, he could have avoided the situation

But would you want the job? Faced with an explosion in your face in a crowded area, or shoot an individual dead knowing he could possibly be innocent and all the shite that will follow, no pressure, just don't break it up.

Hands up, who wants the job?

Yep, certainly applies  in this case... Shortly after a massive terrorist strike in London a man with a backpack refuses to stop for Armed Police Did the correct thing IMO. If they hadn't shot him and he had been another madman with a bomb they would have been slated for that too

[albitz]

I still think the execution of the Brazilian chap on the train was an absolute disgrace, and that someone should have been held to account over it.

Sorry Albs, but the chap was an illegal being chased by armed police. They told him to stop, he didn't... End of the day, he could have avoided the situation

But would you want the job? Faced with an explosion in your face in a crowded area, or shoot an individual dead knowing he could possibly be innocent and all the shite that will follow, no pressure, just don't break it up.

Hands up, who wants the job?

Yep, certainly applies  in this case... Shortly after a massive terrorist strike in London a man with a backpack refuses to stop for Armed Police Did the correct thing IMO. If they hadn't shot him and he had been another madman with a bomb they would have been slated for that too

This was all lies spin put out by the Met immediately after the event. It later transpired that he got as far as walking onto the train and sat down unchallenged by anyone.He didnt run, he didnt vault a ticket barrier - he had no idea anyone was even following him It was when he saw a group of (ununiformed) men walking onto the train and looking/pointing at him, that he, approached them to ask if there was a problem.
At this point 5 of the men held him face down on the floor while the sixth pumped 7 bullets into his head at point blank range at interval of approx 3 seconds.This happened in full view of a carriage full of passengers. And he wasnt carrying a backpack or wearing padded clothing in warm summer weather either. That was also a lie put out by the Met press office. It was an unfortunate coincidence that apparently the cctv cameras in the station werent able to provide any "useful footage" of events.
It was an execution,no other phrase to describe it imo.
If the officers were ordered to do this, whoever gave the order should have been charged with murder. If they werent ordered to do it, the bloke with his finger on the trigger should have been charged with murder.
And the Met apparently havent just been issued with dumdums, as from what I have read they used them on him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menezes

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/aug/17/july7.menezes

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23657459-menezes-coroner-attacks-scotland-yard-flaws-over-shooting.do

http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/002048.html

A police force which can carry out an operation as farcical and tragic as this, and then try to cover it up with a blanket of lies, shouldnt be allowed the responsibilty of roaming our capital city with guns loaded with dumdums. Imo they lost the right to be allowed such responsibility in Stockwell tube station, and the events which occured after the event.

[Dishevelled Den]

This was all lies spin put out by the Met immediately after the event. It later transpired that he got as far as walking onto the train and sat down unchallenged by anyone.He didnt run, he didnt vault a ticket barrier - he had no idea anyone was even following him It was when he saw a group of (ununiformed) men walking onto the train and looking/pointing at him, that he, approached them to ask if there was a problem.
At this point 5 of the men held him face down on the floor while the sixth pumped 7 bullets into his head at point blank range at interval of approx 3 seconds.This happened in full view of a carriage full of passengers. And he wasnt carrying a backpack or wearing padded clothing in warm summer weather either. That was also a lie put out by the Met press office. It was an unfortunate coincidence that apparently the cctv cameras in the station werent able to provide any "useful footage" of events.
It was an execution,no other phrase to describe it imo.
If the officers were ordered to do this, whoever gave the order should have been charged with murder. If they werent ordered to do it, the bloke with his finger on the trigger should have been charged with murder.
And the Met apparently havent just been issued with dumdums, as from what I have read they used them on him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menezes

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/aug/17/july7.menezes

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23657459-menezes-coroner-attacks-scotland-yard-flaws-over-shooting.do

http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/002048.html

A police force which can carry out an operation as farcical and tragic as this, and then try to cover it up with a blanket of lies, shouldnt be allowed the responsibilty of roaming our capital city with guns loaded with dumdums. Imo they lost the right to be allowed such responsibility in Stockwell tube station, and the events which occured after the event.

Yes I agree with the majority that.

There was a systemic failure in how this operation was mounted and executed - from the top down.

However, easier to judge with hindsight but less so when a dynamic situation is quickly unfolding in the aftermath of terrorist 'suicide' bombings in similar surroundings to where the culmination of this police action took place.

This is an example of the burden placed on those who are expected to carry out such duties, manage such operations and plan strategically for such eventualities - but I hold the view, and had always held it, that we should never do the terrorists work for them, either by adopting oppressive measures in our everyday activity when interacting with the public, or killing or injuring innocent people.

I personally found the activities of certain people, not only within the Met’s command structure but also in other agencies, to have been regrettable and of concern - but then it didn’t surprise me in the least, as it has been clear for some time that command within the Met has been open to undue political influence.

It would be irresponsible for the authorities not to place such resources on the streets to combat those who wish to do our people harm but we, as a lawful body, should not behave in such a way – by design or incompetence – to hurt those we are sworn to protect.