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[Martin_1962]

Paxman - used to manufacture in Colchester iirc - bought out by MAN (German company afaik). I think they may still have some manufacturing capability in the UK,not sure though. :-/

Unless it is only spares.

AFAIK they even do spares for old Napier lumps

[trainmanone]

might have Siemens written on the box but look deeper...............parts.....................made in china ......................why ? cheaper to make and labeled made in Germany.......... how do i know panel fell off 185 cab this morning as i was driving to preston had made in Germany sticker  on it with Chinese writing underneath the sticker .me thinks something isnt right with Siemens tbh  .dont get me wrong 185 units are great to drive so long as all three engines are running,lots of faults are now showing up

[Nickbat]

might have Siemens written on the box but look deeper...............parts.....................made in china ......................why ? cheaper to make and labeled made in Germany.......... how do i know panel fell off 185 cab this morning as i was driving to preston had made in Germany sticker  on it with Chinese writing underneath the sticker .me thinks something isnt right with Siemens tbh  .dont get me wrong 185 units are great to drive so long as all three engines are running,lots of faults are now showing up

Why am I not surprised? 

[Nickbat]

"...Deutsche Bahn have instructed that the Bombardier bogies be used on their ICX fleet of high speed trains, due to them being reliable, compliant, and having more than a billion miles of operation to date on the clock. The Bombardier B5000 is currently used on East Midland's Trains Meridians, Virgin's Voyagers and Super Voyagers, and Southern's Turbostar's. These companies have commended the quality of the Bombardier engineering. The Bombardier bogies took 10 years to develop and construct and are now seen as the world’s leading bogie frame and has proven reliability as opposed to the undeveloped and untested Siemens bogie."
http://witteringwitney.blogspot.com/2011/08/might-bombardier-yet-bomb-siemens-off.html

 

[tunnie]

"...Deutsche Bahn have instructed that the Bombardier bogies be used on their ICX fleet of high speed trains, due to them being reliable, compliant, and having more than a billion miles of operation to date on the clock. The Bombardier B5000 is currently used on East Midland's Trains Meridians, Virgin's Voyagers and Super Voyagers, and Southern's Turbostar's. These companies have commended the quality of the Bombardier engineering. The Bombardier bogies took 10 years to develop and construct and are now seen as the world’s leading bogie frame and has proven reliability as opposed to the undeveloped and untested Siemens bogie."
http://witteringwitney.blogspot.com/2011/08/might-bombardier-yet-bomb-siemens-off.html

 

Its just a shame what they build on top of the bogies is shite!

[Marks DTM Calib]

"...Deutsche Bahn have instructed that the Bombardier bogies be used on their ICX fleet of high speed trains, due to them being reliable, compliant, and having more than a billion miles of operation to date on the clock. The Bombardier B5000 is currently used on East Midland's Trains Meridians, Virgin's Voyagers and Super Voyagers, and Southern's Turbostar's. These companies have commended the quality of the Bombardier engineering. The Bombardier bogies took 10 years to develop and construct and are now seen as the world’s leading bogie frame and has proven reliability as opposed to the undeveloped and untested Siemens bogie."
http://witteringwitney.blogspot.com/2011/08/might-bombardier-yet-bomb-siemens-off.html

 

And as I am sure you are aware, there is a hell of a lot more to a train than bogies. The complex part of this contract is the traction and power supplies. The bogies are also not built at Derby as they are swiss deisgned and manufactured (assembly only at Derby)

And do be very aware that the bogies have had major issues to:

http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/current_investigations_register/100220_east_langton.cfm

That one was a very near miss and thankfulfy it was a trailing bogie set that failed, if it had been a leading one then it would have casued more than the 1 mile of track and signal damage.

[Nickbat]

"...Deutsche Bahn have instructed that the Bombardier bogies be used on their ICX fleet of high speed trains, due to them being reliable, compliant, and having more than a billion miles of operation to date on the clock. The Bombardier B5000 is currently used on East Midland's Trains Meridians, Virgin's Voyagers and Super Voyagers, and Southern's Turbostar's. These companies have commended the quality of the Bombardier engineering. The Bombardier bogies took 10 years to develop and construct and are now seen as the world’s leading bogie frame and has proven reliability as opposed to the undeveloped and untested Siemens bogie."
http://witteringwitney.blogspot.com/2011/08/might-bombardier-yet-bomb-siemens-off.html

 

And as I am sure you are aware, there is a hell of a lot more to a train than bogies. The complex part of this contract is the traction and power supplies. The bogies are also not built at Derby as they are swiss deisgned and manufactured (assembly only at Derby)

And do be very aware that the bogies have had major issues to:

http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/current_investigations_register/100220_east_langton.cfm

That one was a very near miss and thankfulfy it was a trailing bogie set that failed, if it had been a leading one then it would have casued more than the 1 mile of track and signal damage.

Mark, I'm sure you're right in many ways. It's just that I find it hard to dismiss Bomardier trains as "shite". I am sure they have many highly-qualified designers and engineers in their employ. There may be some technical shortcomings, as you say, but I don't understand how their trains can be given the blanket descriptions offered here.  :-/

[hoofing it]

This argument is flawed. Isn't this why Britain no longer is a mass producer of good cars and exactly why Germany is?

Bombardier seem to have issues with quality listening to users but couldn't they have been addressed?

IF we ever get High speed trains who is going to build them? Germans? Spanish?Chinese? More jobs gone abroad or more correctly down the pan..............

Bombardier are just like a local authority Top heavy high managment wage packets,can't afford to invest because of overheads where as Germany/Japan invest in the business not managment

[tunnie]

"...Deutsche Bahn have instructed that the Bombardier bogies be used on their ICX fleet of high speed trains, due to them being reliable, compliant, and having more than a billion miles of operation to date on the clock. The Bombardier B5000 is currently used on East Midland's Trains Meridians, Virgin's Voyagers and Super Voyagers, and Southern's Turbostar's. These companies have commended the quality of the Bombardier engineering. The Bombardier bogies took 10 years to develop and construct and are now seen as the world’s leading bogie frame and has proven reliability as opposed to the undeveloped and untested Siemens bogie."
http://witteringwitney.blogspot.com/2011/08/might-bombardier-yet-bomb-siemens-off.html

 

And as I am sure you are aware, there is a hell of a lot more to a train than bogies. The complex part of this contract is the traction and power supplies. The bogies are also not built at Derby as they are swiss deisgned and manufactured (assembly only at Derby)

And do be very aware that the bogies have had major issues to:

http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/current_investigations_register/100220_east_langton.cfm

That one was a very near miss and thankfulfy it was a trailing bogie set that failed, if it had been a leading one then it would have casued more than the 1 mile of track and signal damage.

Interesting read that, darn scary too 

[Marks DTM Calib]

"...Deutsche Bahn have instructed that the Bombardier bogies be used on their ICX fleet of high speed trains, due to them being reliable, compliant, and having more than a billion miles of operation to date on the clock. The Bombardier B5000 is currently used on East Midland's Trains Meridians, Virgin's Voyagers and Super Voyagers, and Southern's Turbostar's. These companies have commended the quality of the Bombardier engineering. The Bombardier bogies took 10 years to develop and construct and are now seen as the world’s leading bogie frame and has proven reliability as opposed to the undeveloped and untested Siemens bogie."
http://witteringwitney.blogspot.com/2011/08/might-bombardier-yet-bomb-siemens-off.html

 

And as I am sure you are aware, there is a hell of a lot more to a train than bogies. The complex part of this contract is the traction and power supplies. The bogies are also not built at Derby as they are swiss deisgned and manufactured (assembly only at Derby)

And do be very aware that the bogies have had major issues to:

http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/current_investigations_register/100220_east_langton.cfm

That one was a very near miss and thankfulfy it was a trailing bogie set that failed, if it had been a leading one then it would have casued more than the 1 mile of track and signal damage.

Mark, I'm sure you're right in many ways. It's just that I find it hard to dismiss Bomardier trains as "shite". I am sure they have many highly-qualified designers and engineers in their employ. There may be some technical shortcomings, as you say, but I don't understand how their trains can be given the blanket descriptions offered here.  :-/

You will note that at nop point have I personaly stated they are shite.

The key point I have been trying to make is that Bombardier are not the best fit supplier for the Thameslink type trains as its not what they are good at or even have a track record in (excuse the pun).

Diesel multiple units they can do, coaches they can also do but the unist required for this contract is an 'unknown' area to them and hence, I would not be selecting them either (sadly).

[Nickbat]

"...Deutsche Bahn have instructed that the Bombardier bogies be used on their ICX fleet of high speed trains, due to them being reliable, compliant, and having more than a billion miles of operation to date on the clock. The Bombardier B5000 is currently used on East Midland's Trains Meridians, Virgin's Voyagers and Super Voyagers, and Southern's Turbostar's. These companies have commended the quality of the Bombardier engineering. The Bombardier bogies took 10 years to develop and construct and are now seen as the world’s leading bogie frame and has proven reliability as opposed to the undeveloped and untested Siemens bogie."
http://witteringwitney.blogspot.com/2011/08/might-bombardier-yet-bomb-siemens-off.html

 

And as I am sure you are aware, there is a hell of a lot more to a train than bogies. The complex part of this contract is the traction and power supplies. The bogies are also not built at Derby as they are swiss deisgned and manufactured (assembly only at Derby)

And do be very aware that the bogies have had major issues to:

http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/current_investigations_register/100220_east_langton.cfm

That one was a very near miss and thankfulfy it was a trailing bogie set that failed, if it had been a leading one then it would have casued more than the 1 mile of track and signal damage.

Mark, I'm sure you're right in many ways. It's just that I find it hard to dismiss Bomardier trains as "shite". I am sure they have many highly-qualified designers and engineers in their employ. There may be some technical shortcomings, as you say, but I don't understand how their trains can be given the blanket descriptions offered here.  :-/

You will note that at nop point have I personaly stated they are shite.

The key point I have been trying to make is that Bombardier are not the best fit supplier for the Thameslink type trains as its not what they are good at or even have a track record in (excuse the pun).

Diesel multiple units they can do, coaches they can also do but the unist required for this contract is an 'unknown' area to them and hence, I would not be selecting them either (sadly).

True, it was T who stated that. 

I fully take on board your knowledge of rail matters, Mark. However, I'm not 100% sure the right decision was taken. 

[tunnie]

Eh? Wha? 

I'm basing my views, on my experience. The Bombardier built 168's that I used for several years commuting to London.

Compared to the earlier BR designed & built units they were terrible, horrid vibration throughout the cabin, trim vibrating badly, not exactly quick either. Ride, well not exactly great, in fact in was not better than the BR 165's

BR units, although slower top end, where much quieter in the cabin, Chiltern added A/C and you could here no bits of trim about to fall off!

Secondly the new Underground units, there was nothing wrong with the 1973 Metro stock, was the most reliable on whole of London Underground!

They appear to create a massive amount of heat, unlike GEC Central Line / Jubilee line.

In contrast the Siemens units which run Heathrow Connect near me, feel sold to be in, nothing rattles, damn fast pulling away, aircon that really works. Unlike Bombardiers which is just appalling!

South West Trains into Waterloo from Sky are great too, again Leccy 3rd rail, fast, not that comfy but its designed for capacity. Airon that really does make you cold!! Even when train is packed. Ultra smooth too.


Moving on to Class 220 which I used a few times as Virgin Voyager services, I can't begin to describe how utter crap they are! Tiny cabin for main line, again really terrible vibration throughout the cabins, trim vibrating, small windows, weak aircon, although when pushed did have some go in them. But that could not make up for the very unpleasant passenger experience.

I don't know much about the technical sides of the contract, but from passenger view, I'm glad its Siemens, they make the better product 

Why do I have an Omega, rather than Rover 75 

[tunnie]

should add you can get smooth quite DMU's like the Class 180, used them a few times, built by Alstom. Although they had other issues. But smoothness and passenger comfort was not bad for a DMU!