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[Marks DTM Calib]

Its certainly a hybrid!

It is nothing more than 2 manual boxes and a shed load of servos.....but, it is still capable of automatic shifting and hence is an auto box

[Andy B]

......but, it is still capable of automatic shifting .....

just about

...... and hence is an auto box

You'd soon tire of it

[Marks DTM Calib]

......but, it is still capable of automatic shifting .....

just about

...... and hence is an auto box

You'd soon tire of it

Its an auto box, of course I would! 

They have a few issues, they are only fast on upshifting and not down shifting.

There only fast because they pre-select the next gear on the opposing half of the box (no double shifting!).

They are rather heavy, seem to recall the 7 speed unit in the Audi's is in the order of 120Kg with the 6 speed about 70-80 Kg!

Dont even ask how much a new dual pack wet clutch is.....and the cost of fitting 

[cem_devecioglu]

when I heard the price of a new smg box ,

I tought you better buy a new car

[Andy B]

.....
Dont even ask how much a new dual pack wet clutch is.....and the cost of fitting 

Do tell!     
Just reading some of the quotes for work done on here ....
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=58098  :-?

[Marks DTM Calib]

The ZF version is supposed to be better (its quite the norm for ZF boxes to be better than Getrag though!)

http://www.zf.com/corporate/en/products/innovations/7_speed_dualclutch/7_speed_dualclutch.html

[feeutfo]

if DSG could be made as reliable as a manual, i would have one over a 430L family box all rather day long. If it does not impress there "Must" be something wrong. Clonkey? Nothing wrong with it? You want a broke one in that case, as all others must be, clearly.

[Marks DTM Calib]

if DSG could be made as reliable as a manual, i would have one over a 430L family box all rather day long. If it does not impress there "Must" be something wrong. Clonkey? Nothing wrong with it? You want a broke one in that case, as all others must be, clearly.

Lol, I didn't understand a word of that......been on the beer?

[cruisetopoland]

Lol, the funniest thing about this latter part of the thread is stupid comparison between a 20 year old gearbox design and a 5 year gearbox design.

HELLO.....things do get developed!

But there's no comparison at all between the 2 of them, 20 yrs or not. One is an auto with torque converter and the other is a manual gearbox with auto controls. They are like comparing apples with bananas. They both achieve a similar end result but using completely different ideas. I personally didn't like the DSG - I said at the time, I could live with it if I had to, but I'd have a proper torque converter auto any day of the week, no matter whether it was a 20odd 3 speed box with a 4th electrically opperated overdrive or one of the fance 6 & 7 speed autos from Mercedes.

That's the point-things move on.  Generally getting more complex, which is a different matter, but times change.
There are some hateful auto/automated manual boxes out there-Citroen's sensodrive on the 1.6 is notoriously bad, but in my experience the DSG box, however complicated and potentially unreliable in the long term, is a world ahead in driving of our auto boxes-which as you say are a 20 year old design.

But, as commented, I wonder how many DSG boxes will be serviceable in 10 years like our Omega boxes are now?

Many people just quote auto reviews without experiencing the actual car or just take a view on one model:- the DSG box suits certain engines better than others too-so a bog 105 TDI will not compare to a CR170TDI-I suppose like the 2.0 8v is a world away from the 3.2 24v Omega.

I am not biased-impartial    Interesting responses...

[feeutfo]

if DSG could be made as reliable as a manual, i would have one over a 430L family box all rather day long. If it does not impress there "Must" be something wrong. Clonkey? Nothing wrong with it? You want a broke one in that case, as all others must be, clearly.

Lol, I didn't understand a word of that......been on the beer?

Ar25/35. Are they not related to the BMW 430L auto boxs(or what ever they are called)?  Anyway, would have a DSG if reliable over an Omega box any day. To imply DSG are "Clonkey" then obviously there is something wrong with that partitlar example. Driven 3 DSG'S  now, all very smooth. Def no clonks.

To answer your question, no, no beer.....

..... sits back and waits to be blindly told the opposite by another member, and gets ready to congratulate him as a winner, and to go forward to the first heat of his chosen sport (master mind?) for the special olympicis. :-) night all.

[cruisetopoland]

[/quote]
Anyway, would have a DSG if reliable over an Omega box any day. To imply DSG are "Clonkey" then obviously there is something wrong with that partitlar example. Driven 3 DSG'S  now, all very smooth. Def no clonks.

[/quote]

Someone else who has driven a few 

[Marks DTM Calib]

if DSG could be made as reliable as a manual, i would have one over a 430L family box all rather day long. If it does not impress there "Must" be something wrong. Clonkey? Nothing wrong with it? You want a broke one in that case, as all others must be, clearly.

Lol, I didn't understand a word of that......been on the beer?

Ar25/35. Are they not related to the BMW 430L auto boxs(or what ever they are called)?  Anyway, would have a DSG if reliable over an Omega box any day. To imply DSG are "Clonkey" then obviously there is something wrong with that partitlar example. Driven 3 DSG'S  now, all very smooth. Def no clonks.

To answer your question, no, no beer.....

..... sits back and waits to be blindly told the opposite by another member, and gets ready to congratulate him as a winner, and to go forward to the first heat of his chosen sport (master mind?) for the special olympicis. :-) night all.

Of course they are smooth when working, this is due to what they do with the engine. They vary the engine revs (up for a down change) and back off the torque (for an upchange).

There achilles heal is that they learn the driver (more important with a clutch based setup) so you can get rough changing when two opposing driving styles use the car after each other whilst the new driving style is learnt.

The 4L30E is NOT a BMW box, its a GM unit and the basic design goes back to the 70's (as a 3 speed) which then had an additonal section bolted in (hence the seperate small sump at the front) and a box of electronics added to bring it upto date. This does use a basic retard function to smooth gear changes.

More modern auto boxes are as smooth (if not smoother) than a DSG as they use the same engine control (which is the bit that makes the change smooth) during a shift.

Note, the VAG DSG is a Getrag unit.....not a VAG design

[feeutfo]

if DSG could be made as reliable as a manual, i would have one over a 430L family box all rather day long. If it does not impress there "Must" be something wrong. Clonkey? Nothing wrong with it? You want a broke one in that case, as all others must be, clearly.

Lol, I didn't understand a word of that......been on the beer?

Ar25/35. Are they not related to the BMW 430L auto boxs(or what ever they are called)?  Anyway, would have a DSG if reliable over an Omega box any day. To imply DSG are "Clonkey" then obviously there is something wrong with that partitlar example. Driven 3 DSG'S  now, all very smooth. Def no clonks.

To answer your question, no, no beer.....

..... sits back and waits to be blindly told the opposite by another member, and gets ready to congratulate him as a winner, and to go forward to the first heat of his chosen sport (master mind?) for the special olympicis. :-) night all.

Of course they are smooth when working, this is due to what they do with the engine. They vary the engine revs (up for a down change) and back off the torque (for an upchange).

There achilles heal is that they learn the driver (more important with a clutch based setup) so you can get rough changing when two opposing driving styles use the car after each other whilst the new driving style is learnt.

The 4L30E is NOT a BMW box, its a GM unit and the basic design goes back to the 70's (as a 3 speed) which then had an additonal section bolted in (hence the seperate small sump at the front) and a box of electronics added to bring it upto date. This does use a basic retard function to smooth gear changes.

More modern auto boxes are as smooth (if not smoother) than a DSG as they use the same engine control (which is the bit that makes the change smooth) during a shift.

Note, the VAG DSG is a Getrag unit.....not a VAG design

Always interesting to listen to an informed view Mark :-). Re learning, the 3 cars i drove, none had been driven by me before, 2 demo cars and Mrs Gs Golf. On each occassion i drove or was driven, the box behaved faultlessly. Just to note the demo car by nature would have had numerous drivers. We then went on to own our particular car and never had any issues learning our driving, with my turns being on a weekly basis and a very differant style.

 Being a fussy bugger, and waiting for the apparantly inevitable failure i paid massive attention to each change when driving and being driven. If there's a method of measurement more accurate than a fussy, paranoid, and rather intrigued chrisgixer, then i want to meet it. If there was an out of place change, then i never felt it. Impressive, in my humble opinion.

Does not feel like the torque backs off. Quite the opposite in fact, as you expect it would to save the box, or be "smooth" in the traditional omega sense, not at all, power on all the way. Would think though, that there would have to be some mechanical sympathy programmed in, to which you refer i guess?

Well, was close with the 4l30 unit. :-) was it used in BM's then? Maybe i have it the other way round, felt sure there is a BMW link somewhere. :-)

[Marks DTM Calib]

Yes, BMW used the Gm box in the 5 series (also Isuzu used it)

On an up-shift, the torque back off is very short (retarded timing or, in the case of a diesel, injection parameters changed). The down shift is slow due to the need to raise engine revs to match shaft speed on the box (about half a second).....this is something the 4L30E cant do (as it was developed before the drive by wire throttle setups became common) but, modern autos do this as standard.

The weight is a big problem for them though, in a true front wheel drive car its a major drawback (more nose heavy), in the likes of a 4 wheel drive audi its better (longtitudonal engine setup).

The ZF site with its graphics shows the operation very well

[Ian_D]

if DSG could be made as reliable as a manual, i would have one over a 430L family box all rather day long. If it does not impress there "Must" be something wrong. Clonkey? Nothing wrong with it? You want a broke one in that case, as all others must be, clearly.

Lol, I didn't understand a word of that......been on the beer?

Ar25/35. Are they not related to the BMW 430L auto boxs(or what ever they are called)?  Anyway, would have a DSG if reliable over an Omega box any day. To imply DSG are "Clonkey" then obviously there is something wrong with that partitlar example. Driven 3 DSG'S  now, all very smooth. Def no clonks.

To answer your question, no, no beer.....

..... sits back and waits to be blindly told the opposite by another member, and gets ready to congratulate him as a winner, and to go forward to the first heat of his chosen sport (master mind?) for the special olympicis. :-) night all.

Of course they are smooth when working, this is due to what they do with the engine. They vary the engine revs (up for a down change) and back off the torque (for an upchange).

There achilles heal is that they learn the driver (more important with a clutch based setup) so you can get rough changing when two opposing driving styles use the car after each other whilst the new driving style is learnt.

The 4L30E is NOT a BMW box, its a GM unit and the basic design goes back to the 70's (as a 3 speed) which then had an additonal section bolted in (hence the seperate small sump at the front) and a box of electronics added to bring it upto date. This does use a basic retard function to smooth gear changes.

More modern auto boxes are as smooth (if not smoother) than a DSG as they use the same engine control (which is the bit that makes the change smooth) during a shift.

Note, the VAG DSG is a Getrag unit.....not a VAG design

I've always wondered that! I know know!   

Anyway - Autos are still better