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Author Topic: LPG cars may not get insurance...  (Read 4457 times)

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HNO3GOH

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LPG cars may not get insurance...
« on: 20 April 2010, 23:01:03 »

... so i've been told by a LPG company. I called an LPG fitting company today near me for a price and info on systems fitted and had a very long chat with this guy and we got round to the filler and where it has to go on the car and he told me the any other place other than the rear quarter is now not permitted now under new guide lines because plastic bumpers are to weak and fitting to the towbar is far from sucure and any LPG car will be subject to testing and if found not to be up to standard then your insurance company will not cover you and part of this reason for this test is to try and stop the DIY kits being sold and fitted. Has any one come across this yet because i was thinking about buying a kit and fitting it myself, also he said about single hole tanks are c**p and to go for a 4 hole and to try and stay away from polish systems and go for a danish made system :-/ :-/
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feeutfo

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Re: LPG cars may not get insurance...
« Reply #1 on: 20 April 2010, 23:13:29 »

"he would say that, wouldn't he" springs to mind...? he wants the work, ignore.
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Martin_1962

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Re: LPG cars may not get insurance...
« Reply #2 on: 20 April 2010, 23:33:40 »

Some of us want it done properly
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2woody

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Re: LPG cars may not get insurance...
« Reply #3 on: 21 April 2010, 09:24:17 »

there's a couple of issues here....

there are certainly no requirements as have been mentioned to you.

yes, he probably wants the work

"done properly" very rarely applies to a commercial LPG fitter. You could do a better, safer job yourself in pretty much all circumstances.

Actually, after much thought, I've decided why I don't like the commercial LPG industry. It's all to do with cost. As pretty much all people having LPG fitted are doing so for cost reasons, it drives the inductry to do a cheap job - right down to the design of the kits from manufacturers.

Thinking about it, if you were going to change from petrol to diesel, you wouldn't keep the petrol injection system, blank off the injectors and then add a piggy-back device to run the diesel injection system, would you ? But that's pretty much how an LPG conversion works.
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Entwood

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Re: LPG cars may not get insurance...
« Reply #4 on: 21 April 2010, 09:49:20 »

Quote
there's a couple of issues here....

there are certainly no requirements as have been mentioned to you.

yes, he probably wants the work

"done properly" very rarely applies to a commercial LPG fitter. You could do a better, safer job yourself in pretty much all circumstances.

Actually, after much thought, I've decided why I don't like the commercial LPG industry. It's all to do with cost. As pretty much all people having LPG fitted are doing so for cost reasons, it drives the inductry to do a cheap job - right down to the design of the kits from manufacturers.

Thinking about it, if you were going to change from petrol to diesel, you wouldn't keep the petrol injection system, blank off the injectors and then add a piggy-back device to run the diesel injection system, would you ? But that's pretty much how an LPG conversion works.

I disagree here .. LPG is NOT a "conversion" but an "addition" ... you have the choice to run LPG or Petrol, both are still present - in fact most start on petrol before changing to LPG - this is NOT the case of a diesel/petrol conversion as the two engines are totally different in design and spec.

Comparing the two is like comparing apples and potataoes. Both are edible, but that's as far as it goes.
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Sixstring

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Re: LPG cars may not get insurance...
« Reply #5 on: 21 April 2010, 10:09:36 »

I totally agree with you, mate. 90% of all the systems I have seen appear to be poorly fitted and amateur, and seeing I want LPG on my 3.0V6, have looked at a lot so I might do it myself. LPG is in ADDITION to petrol in 99% of all cars, and because of the potential of accident/faults having an extra tank of flammable gas in the car in addition to any amount of petrol too, it had better be foolproof, properly installed, and totally safe. As for what that fitter said, have checked with the people who SHOULD know all the facts,( National LPG installation federation) and they tell me its complete bullsh*t. By the way, some of the Polish systems have BS marks and accreditation, so they must be up to the job.......
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Kevin Wood

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Re: LPG cars may not get insurance...
« Reply #6 on: 21 April 2010, 10:24:16 »

Quote
any other place other than the rear quarter is now not permitted now under new guide lines because plastic bumpers are to weak and fitting to the towbar is far from sucure
Well, I've had 1.8 tons of trailer hanging off my towbar and it didn't go anywhere. I'd say that's secure enough for an LPG filler.
Quote
any LPG car will be subject to testing and if found not to be up to standard then your insurance company will not cover you
So, someone's going to knock on the door of every LPG car owner and demand that it's tested? :-/
Quote
and part of this reason for this test is to try and stop the DIY kits being sold and fitted.

This has always been the dream of the LPGA / UKLPG. They are a trade association and, as such, exist to generate work for their members over and above anything else. If their members were policed a bit better and not such total cowboys they might have made more inroads in that respect.
UKLPG can dream up whatever rules they like. Until there is either a legal obligation to use only their members for LPG work or 100% commitment from the insurance industry to require vehicles to be converted by their members, DIY LPG will carry on unaffected.
Quote
Has any one come across this yet because i was thinking about buying a kit and fitting it myself, also he said about single hole tanks are c**p and to go for a 4 hole and to try and stay away from polish systems and go for a danish made system :-/ :-/
Makes no odds where the system is made as long as it suits the car. I have a Polish setup on mine and can't fault it. Choice between 4 hole and single hole is down to budget and power output. Nothing wrong with a single hole tank, certainly below 200 BHP there is little advantage in going 4 hole IMHO.

This sounds like typical scaremongering from an LPGA "professional" - the type who drills intake manifolds in-situ, most likely. ;)

Quote
"done properly" very rarely applies to a commercial LPG fitter. You could do a better, safer job yourself in pretty much all circumstances.

Agreed. :y

Quote
Thinking about it, if you were going to change from petrol to diesel, you wouldn't keep the petrol injection system, blank off the injectors and then add a piggy-back device to run the diesel injection system, would you ? But that's pretty much how an LPG conversion works.

In an ideal world you are correct but most people wouldn't want to change to LPG but have dual fuel capability due to the less than widespread availability of LPG.

Given that you've got to retain the capability to run on petrol and the petrol ECU is quite tightly integrated with other systems on the car (automatic gearbox, ABS/TC, etc.), and this varies between models of car the most standard interface where you can connect the LPG system is at the fuel injector output of the petrol ECU.

This is a compromise, of course. You would design the engine itself differently for LPG and the need to start on petrol is also a symptom of piggy backing from the petrol ECU.

Kevin
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tunnie

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Re: LPG cars may not get insurance...
« Reply #7 on: 21 April 2010, 12:35:43 »

got a Polish system with 90L single hole tank on mine, over 1k later, not missed a beat!!!

With regards to single hole tank, nothing wrong with them! Very few LPG filler stations take advance of 4 hole, and unless your 200 bhp + its not needed!
« Last Edit: 21 April 2010, 12:41:13 by tunnie »
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tigers_gonads

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Re: LPG cars may not get insurance...
« Reply #8 on: 21 April 2010, 13:09:00 »

slightly off topic but ........ single hole / 4 hole ?

whats the differance ?  ( other then the hole that is  ;D )
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tunnie

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Re: LPG cars may not get insurance...
« Reply #9 on: 21 April 2010, 13:34:37 »

Quote
slightly off topic but ........ single hole / 4 hole ?

whats the differance ?  ( other then the hole that is  ;D )

single hole means one hole in the tank, 4 hole, err, means 4 holes i tank!

Idea is more flow in and out of the tank, so faster fills, and can send it to engine quicker. But very, very few LPG stations can fill the faster rate, if they can, bet their price won't be the cheapest.   ;)
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Entwood

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Re: LPG cars may not get insurance...
« Reply #10 on: 21 April 2010, 13:50:40 »

As I understand it .... and probably wrong anyway .. but this is how it was explained to me ...

Single hole tank .. one hole has to provide facilities for liquid in/vapour out when filling, liquid out when running (no need to vent when running as boil off replaces the liquid used) and a "blow off" safety line as well .. so one hole does 4 jobs.... thus having flow restirctions

4 hole tank has a hole for liquid in, a hole for vapour out, a hole for liquid for running and a hole for "safety release" .. ie  a hole for each job.

This means it can handle higher flow rates for faster filling and greater horsepower.

HTH and hope it is reasonably accurate !!

The only bit I'm unsure of is the "fill vent" aspect .. as there is certainly no smell of venting when i fill up !!
« Last Edit: 21 April 2010, 13:51:56 by entwood »
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Kevin Wood

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Re: LPG cars may not get insurance...
« Reply #11 on: 21 April 2010, 14:03:31 »

Quote
The only bit I'm unsure of is the "fill vent" aspect .. as there is certainly no smell of venting when i fill up !!

So there shouldn't be. The only circumstances in which the tank vents is if the internal pressure exceeds the design limits of the tank. When filling normally, the space taken up by the additional liquid is given up by increasing pressure of the vapour in the tank and condensation of the vapour into liquid on the walls of the tank, reducing its' volume.

Older LPG tanks used to have a "spill valve" located at the 80% level on the tank. When filling, this valve would be cracked open to allow vapour to escape. You used it to determine when the tank was full before automatic fill cutoff valves were common. Essentially, once liquid started to emerge, you stopped filling.

The only LPG tank I can recall seeing this arrangement on was fitted to the old winches at the gliding club. I once had to fill one at 5:30 AM and -5 oC. It took some doing to remove my frozen fingers from the spill valve after tightening it up. :o Thereafter, I wore gloves. ;D

Kevin
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Lazydocker

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Re: LPG cars may not get insurance...
« Reply #12 on: 22 April 2010, 21:18:11 »

HN03... What a load of total horse.... you've been fed!

I have now seen several "Professional" LPG installations and all of them (with the exception of Entwood's) were done by someone I wouldn't let near my rollerskates if it a sign of the standard of their work :o :o

Tanks... Already been explained.

Nationality of kit... Polish/Italian are plenty good enough :y :y
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HNO3GOH

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Re: LPG cars may not get insurance...
« Reply #13 on: 22 April 2010, 22:32:19 »

But the thing is i would have a try at a DIY but i would balls it up so this is why i had a look at companys near to me but i was told today that the £1900 they quoted was far to high and to have a look at some of the companys who are on ebay selling it as they are doing it for £1300, then i talk to the guys on here and it seems to be stay away from the companys and DIY.

Does a member who has done this before fancy a little job ;) ;)
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PhilRich

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Re: LPG cars may not get insurance...
« Reply #14 on: 22 April 2010, 22:51:51 »

Quote
But the thing is i would have a try at a DIY but i would balls it up so this is why i had a look at companys near to me but i was told today that the £1900 they quoted was far to high and to have a look at some of the companys who are on ebay selling it as they are doing it for £1300, then i talk to the guys on here and it seems to be stay away from the companys and DIY.

Does a member who has done this before fancy a little job ;) ;)



There is no way that a DIY LPG install is beyond your capabilities. You would get all the help you needed & more from the guys on here i'm sure? I'm going to do mine as soon as I can arrange the kit and I expect the guys on here will be sick of the sound of me before it's done, but I know they will come up Trumps :y
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