Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Markjay]

We had a plumber doing our bathroom while we were away on holiday, he should have finished in one week but took over a month, wanted more money, and eventually walked out on the job (long story...). We had to take someone else to finish the job. One of the things the plumber wanted more money for was the fact that he had to employ a labourer to help sort out 'unforeseeable' wood rot problems. He told us that he used the advance money that we (foolishly) paid him to pay off his labourer, and that he was out of pocket as he had nothing for the work he himself did so far, so could not continue until we pay him more money.

This evening a man showed up on our doorstep, we were not at home so he got our mobile number from the girls and called me 10 times in total in just 15 minutes saying he worked in our house with the plumber and demanded to be paid. He went into long description of the hard work he did and kept banging on about 'you owe me money'. I tried to explain to him that (a) I don't know him and didn't ask him to do anything, (b) he should go to the plumber who employed him , not me, and ask for his pay, (c) at any rate the plumber told me that the labourer was paid.

The guy wouldn't have it and while not directly threatening, he said things like 'you don't know me' and 'I won't let this go'. I was upset at the fact that actually came to our house and told him that he is totally out of order that he came to the house and spoke to the girls (albeit over the intercom as the wouldn't open the door). He finally sent a text message saying he will wait 'until Friday' - not specifying what will happen on Friday.

I am considering going to the police tomorrow and file a complaint against him - problem is I only have his mobile number and no other details. I don't know the guy, don't know what he is capable of, and I am definitely not happy with the idea that he might call again at the house, especially when I am not there. I am not afraid of him personally, but am worried about the family as I can't be at home all the time. Even if he does not actually do anything he is harassing and intimidating by his presence and phone calls - my wife is shattered. I don't think I legally owe him anything, I believe he knows this but simply trying to intimidate us into paying because the plumber did not pay him (the plumber told us a pack of lies throughout, so not impossible that he said he paid his labourer but didn't). But realistically I think him and the plumber are in this together.

Any suggestions or comments regarding the above, the legal status of things, and to what extent can I expect sympathy from the police? will they look at this as a private commercial dispute and not get involved, or will they actually see the distress this is causing the family and take some action? I am London so it is the Mets.







 

[Golfbuddy]

Contracturally, I'm sure you know, he doesn't have a leg to stand on as there is no contract between you and him. For a contract to exist there must be (1) an offer, and there wasn't (2) an acceptance, and there wasn't and (3) consideration, i.e. some value attached to the contract or the price one party is willing to pay the other as a result of the contract. As you never had any agreement with this fella, you can't have a contract.

Don't know about the criminal side although you know how these things seem to go these days. Perhaps one of our friends from the 'Boys in Blue' will be along to help later.

Hope everything works out for the best mate.

[MikeDundee]

Well the way I see it he needs to speak to the plumber, and as golfbuddy said, you don't owe the labourer anything, you did'nt employ him the plumber did, therefore its the plumber he should be talking too.
I sympathize regarding the family as you may not know the guy and he could be lurking about outside waiting to catch one of you.

Can you not contact the said plumber and advise him whats going on as it is his responsibility, and advise the other guy he should be speaking to the plumber, as you have paid the plumber for the labourers wages already.

All sounds very iffy, plumbers gave him your number, he's probably told the labourer u ain't paid, is the plumber in the yellow pages?, get in touch with trading standards, advise the Police as a precautionary measure.

Best of luck hope it all gets sorted

[JamesV6CDX]

Markjay, what an unpleasant situation. As said, he has no leg to stand on legally, you owe him bugger all. He needs to speak to the guy that took him on. I hate confrontations like this.

I would say that you need to firmly tell this guy that he needs to speak to his employer and not you. Tell him very straight that you do not owe him anything, and if he disputes this, then he needs to take you to the small claims court (not that he'll have a chance in hell).

If he then continues to contact you, after you've requested he doesn't, it is no longer a civil dispute, it is harassment, which is a criminal offence. As such, you have every right to go to the Police and complain. If he's talking to your kids while you're out, that's completely out of order.

Also, contact the plumber if you can, and ask who this guy is.. go armed with as much info as possible.

Try and avoid a direct confrontation, he might be a nasty peice of work, and even if you're not scared of him, it's not a nice thing to happen at your family home.

Good luck, be strong

[stuart30]

Markjay ive sent you a pm mate.

[Markjay]

Thanks guys for your advice and support...

I went to the local police station this morning, and not entirely unexpectedly they just weren't interested. The PC said that as long as we are in dispute with the plumber all this goes under civil commercial disagreement and the police will not get involved. He said the the guy that came to out house had every right to do so as long as he didn't enter our premises (which he did not) or specifically threatened us. The PC kept saying 'call you plumber, and sort it out with him, then all this will go away'. When I insisted, he said that we can press criminal charges if we wanted to but he also hinted that the police wouldn't actually do anything about it anyway. And considering that I don't even have the person's full name and address, I don't see how insisting on complaining would help as the police are definitely not going to look him up.

The more I think about it the more I am concerned, since the worker that spoke to me on the phone was both eloquent and clever, and seemed very proficient and this sort of arguments. You would have expected a worker to either not be so well spoken, or perhaps loose his temper or get a bit worked up and say something he shouldn't, but I have the feeling that this guy knows exactly how to handle the situation and how not to do or say anything that would take this matter over the threshold of police intervention. In short, I suspect he is a professional 'debt collector' hired by the plumber and may not even be the person that actually worked in our house in the first place...

Not sure what t do next really... I am assuming the worker /debt collector will come again on Friday, and if I am correct in my assumptions he will make sure that he harasses us just under the legal threshold knowing very well how to make sure that the police will not get involved.

[hotel21]

Its an offence to send annoying, abusive, offensive etc calls via a telephone network under the Telecoms Act.   If needs be, remind your local Police of that.

Buy a pay and go sim and use that for your mobile for a few weeks.

Invite someone round for tea on Friday so that you have an independant (non family) witness when m'laddo calls.

Tell him, politely but firmly, that you will not enter into any conversation on a doorstep.  Tell him to send a letter with his contact details so that you can refer the matter to a solicitor.  

Have a video recorder with sound running so as to record the visit, Rodger Cook style....

HtH

 

[stuart30]

Its an offence to send annoying, abusive, offensive etc calls via a telephone network under the Telecoms Act.   If needs be, remind your local Police of that.

Buy a pay and go sim and use that for your mobile for a few weeks.

Invite someone round for tea on Friday so that you have an independant (non family) witness when m'laddo calls.

Tell him, politely but firmly, that you will not enter into any conversation on a doorstep.  Tell him to send a letter with his contact details so that you can refer the matter to a solicitor.  

Have a video recorder with sound running so as to record the visit, Rodger Cook style....

HtH

 

And if that doesn't work just beat the crap out of him and remove him from your property......when your arrested just simply explain that the police wouldnt get involved and you extracted your own justice.

I'm jesting....honest.

[Markjay]

Thanks Hotel21....
 

I think I will take the 'send me a letter' approach, these guys seem to know the law and are probably just trying to get me to do something I shouldn't (fat chance of that happening - I am the most calm person you ever met... ), hoping to get me into trouble with the police.

[Markjay]

Also - the content of the calls was not abusive as such, as I said they seem to know what they are doing, but I wonder if calling my mobile 11 times in 15 minutes can also be considered  'abuse' under the Telecom act?

[hotel21]

A quick google turned this up.....

http://www.west-midlands.police.uk/crime-reduction/crime-victim-malicious.asp

[markrl]

Given that this man clearly has no basis for any kind of “Civil Dispute” with your good self and I don’t think anyone could think of his action as reasonable, I would suggest that he repeatedly attending your address is contrary to Section 2 of the Protection from Harassment Act 1997.

Prohibition of harassment
(1) A person must not pursue a course of conduct—
(a) which amounts to harassment of another, and
(b) which he knows or ought to know amounts to harassment of the other.
(2) For the purposes of this section, the person whose course of conduct is in question ought to know that it amounts to harassment of another if a reasonable person in possession of the same information would think the course of conduct amounted to harassment of the other.
(3) Subsection (1) does not apply to a course of conduct if the person who pursued it shows—
(a) that it was pursued for the purpose of preventing or detecting crime,
(b) that it was pursued under any enactment or rule of law or to comply with any condition or requirement imposed by any person under any enactment, or
(c) that in the particular circumstances the pursuit of the course of conduct was reasonable.

If this person threatens violence then he commits the aggravated offence under section 4 of the same act

Putting people in fear of violence
(1) A person whose course of conduct causes another to fear, on at least two occasions, that violence will be used against him is guilty of an offence if he knows or ought to know that his course of conduct will cause the other so to fear on each of those occasions.
(2) For the purposes of this section, the person whose course of conduct is in question ought to know that it will cause another to fear that violence will be used against him on any occasion if a reasonable person in possession of the same information would think the course of conduct would cause the other so to fear on that occasion.
(3) It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to show that—
(a) his course of conduct was pursued for the purpose of preventing or detecting crime,
(b) his course of conduct was pursued under any enactment or rule of law or to comply with any condition or requirement imposed by any person under any enactment, or
(c) the pursuit of his course of conduct was reasonable for the protection of himself or another or for the protection of his or another’s property.

The Police as regards the section 2 offence of plain vanilla Harassment usually issue what’s called a “First Instance Harassment Warning” on the first (and often second) occasion which is basically a letter warning them of the above law. If they subsequently go to court this helps prove the “knowingly pursued a course of conduct part” As well as a fine or imprisonment the Magistrates Court also has the power to issue a “Restraining Order” which is basically a Court Order telling them to keep away and desist.  

As you can see the option is open for the Police to take action should they wish?

I would finally point out that the Telecommunications Act 1984 (as pointed out above) has now been replaced by various later Acts of Parliament the latest one being the Communications Act 2003 and any threatening phone calls or electronic communication would fall foul of this act.

Hope this helps apologies for the rather lengthy post





 

[Markjay]

Wow markrl, this is great... very helpful.


Hotel21, the Midlands police website simply says that if you are a victim of telephone harassment then you should contact your telephone operator (presumably to have your number changed or the caller number blocked etc), so once again the police not wanting to get involved...  
 

[omegabeast]

Hi,

I see 2 options here

1: When the lad calls again tell him in no uncertain terms that you are not and will never pay him a single penny as you paid the plumber and his contract is with him. Then say "if you dont like it then go to the police, take me to court or do whatever you want but dont keep boring me ranting over the phone.

2: All us from omegaowners come to your house on the day he says he will turn up , and when you answer the door , i think he would change his mind with over 1500 people behind you!!!!




Matt

[Markjay]

Hi,

I see 2 options here

1: When the lad calls again tell him in no uncertain terms that you are not and will never pay him a single penny as you paid the plumber and his contract is with him. Then say "if you dont like it then go to the police, take me to court or do whatever you want but dont keep boring me ranting over the phone.

I did... he won't have it, saying naaaa naaa naaa you owe me money mate.

2: All us from omegaowners come to your house on the day he says he will turn up , and when you answer the door , i think he would change his mind with over 1500 people behind you!!!!

Matt

I like that one....   and even if only the 70 or so active members show up it will suffice   problem is that it is all restricted parking around here, no place to leave your Omegas so I guess rules out this option