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Author Topic: off to the Police auction tonight....  (Read 2608 times)

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Paul M

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Re: off to the Police auction tonight....
« Reply #15 on: 24 January 2008, 22:35:50 »

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They are not for fun they use them for reliability, rough usage of manuals can kill them very quickly

LOL.... and by contrast any usage of an auto can and probably will kill them very quickly. You only need to take a quick look around this forum to see the ratio of failed autos to manuals ;)

Unless it's very poorly engineered, it's actually pretty hard to wreck a manual box. The clutch obviously wears out and needs replaced at some interval, but even on a hard driven Omega I'd expect 60k out of one (mine lasted 170k!) and it's hardly a big job.

Driving hard doesn't do the box much harm at all, only doing stupid things like crunching it into gear by not using the clutch without matching the revs, or continuing to drive it with a dragging clutch etc are likely to wreck it, and even then it can take some time. I've even seen a manual box survive about 10,000 miles of having barely any oil in an old van a mate used to have  ;D. I doubt pursuit drivers do any of that, even when driving hard, so I doubt reliability is an issue.

I bet they wreck more engines than manual boxes!
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Paul M

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Re: off to the Police auction tonight....
« Reply #16 on: 24 January 2008, 22:38:27 »

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Am I right in thinking the firearms guys like Auto's?

That's so they can do drive-bys, Compton style 8-)
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VXL V6

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Re: off to the Police auction tonight....
« Reply #17 on: 24 January 2008, 22:39:56 »

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You only need to take a quick look around this forum to see the ratio of failed autos to manuals ;)

Though that's a bit of a skewed comparison when you look at the ratio of Omega's produced with an auto box compared to manual.....
« Last Edit: 24 January 2008, 22:40:11 by VXL_V6 »
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Paul M

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Re: off to the Police auction tonight....
« Reply #18 on: 24 January 2008, 22:47:18 »

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We use manuals for panda's and patrol use.  Some cars are auto (Merc ML tonka truck was one, now dead and buried, thankfully) such as a Volvo we bought as an ex demo.  By default, we get manuals.  Not seen a broken manual gearbox in a patrol car round my way in almost 20 years.....

A few rubber ducked auto's though......   :-X

Was the same down at my folks' bit (Strathclyde region), I've been in the back of a few traffic cars back when I stayed down there, and they were all manual. And that included a Mercedes, was quite surprised at that really as Mercs tend to be marketed more at the "mature" driver hence almost non-existance of manuals.

On a similar note, a (semi) interesting alcohol fuelled story...

I was out partying with some mates from down there about a year ago, came out of the club at 3am and there was the usual odd cop here and there keeping an eye on the crowd. Just around the corner were two spanking new BMW 5-series traffic cars. So I went over for a chat and asked if they were 535d, as I suspected they were. So I started giving the driver some stick about it being auto (as they all are, BMW in their infinite wisdom made the diseasel auto only, and of course the M5 manual aka SMG). Just some friendly banter, he did mention that it had flappy paddles on the steering wheel, but I quickly countered that by mentioning the dreaded torque converter is still present. I suggested they should ask for M5s next time ;D before wandering off on my merry way to go chat to some chicks :D
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Paul M

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Re: off to the Police auction tonight....
« Reply #19 on: 25 January 2008, 10:29:24 »

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You only need to take a quick look around this forum to see the ratio of failed autos to manuals ;)

Though that's a bit of a skewed comparison when you look at the ratio of Omega's produced with an auto box compared to manual.....

Not really, considering the number of posts I've come across concerning manual box failures has been in the single figures, yet there's probably not a week goes by without a post (usually several) concerning a problem or failure with an auto. Somehow I have my doubts that the ratio of autos to manuals is anywhere near approaching the failure ratio ::). On the Vectra, manuals far outnumber autos by a bigger margin than auto/manual on the Omega, yet there are still far more cases of auto failures.

If anything the manuals tend to be driven harder on average too, as it will typically be younger guys driving them, many of whom like to try out the limits of RWD adhesion, just to practice in case it happens unexpectedly on a slippery surface of course ;).

Back to the original point, regardless of my driving preference I'd loathe to buy an auto car with over 100k miles on it, as it's a failure waiting to happen. You may be lucky and the previous owners did regular oil changes and was gentle with it, but I bet those are in the minority. The thing with a manual is it doesn't actually need any maintenance (I change the oil in mine anyway but it's usually still clean), so even a neglected one will probably still outlive the engine and/or bodywork. It's not a big deal if you have the equipment and skills to do the work yourself, but for the rest of us I'd rather avoid the hassle.
« Last Edit: 25 January 2008, 10:34:38 by Paul_M »
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TheBoy

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Re: off to the Police auction tonight....
« Reply #20 on: 25 January 2008, 10:43:51 »

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If anything the manuals tend to be driven harder on average too, as it will typically be younger guys driving them
Young people may think they drive harder ;).  I did when I was your age ;).  And I thought I could do it safely (and didn't have a bump for years).  You've heard me say before, everyone needs a significant accident.

Cheers,
TheGrandad
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Kevin Wood

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Re: off to the Police auction tonight....
« Reply #21 on: 25 January 2008, 10:53:17 »

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The thing with a manual is it doesn't actually need any maintenance (I change the oil in mine anyway but it's usually still clean), so even a neglected one will probably still outlive the engine and/or bodywork. It's not a big deal if you have the equipment and skills to do the work yourself, but for the rest of us I'd rather avoid the hassle.

This is the key. Manuals very rarely leak oil, and don't suffer too badly if it's never changed (some don't have a drain plug after all).

Auto boxes, on the other hand, can lose oil through external coolers, etc., it has a much harder life, collects more contaminants and the setup on the Omega seems almost designed to promote neglect because the fluid is so difficult to check, top up and change.

A well looked-after auto will always outlast the clutch on a manual but once it starts to wear, instead of having one wear item that's easily changed, you're into a complex overhaul. Both are gearbox-out jobs anyway, though :-/


Kevin
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Paul M

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Re: off to the Police auction tonight....
« Reply #22 on: 25 January 2008, 11:29:04 »

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Quote
If anything the manuals tend to be driven harder on average too, as it will typically be younger guys driving them
Young people may think they drive harder ;).  I did when I was your age ;).  And I thought I could do it safely (and didn't have a bump for years).  You've heard me say before, everyone needs a significant accident.

Cheers,
TheGrandad

LOL... perhaps, although in this case I'm not talking about getting from A to B quicker (which may or may not be the case), but in terms of the abuse the car receives, the younger the driver the worse it is usually, in  my observance at least. Except in the case of hire cars, which get hell's abuse regardless of driver age ;)
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Paul M

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Re: off to the Police auction tonight....
« Reply #23 on: 25 January 2008, 11:42:05 »

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The thing with a manual is it doesn't actually need any maintenance (I change the oil in mine anyway but it's usually still clean), so even a neglected one will probably still outlive the engine and/or bodywork. It's not a big deal if you have the equipment and skills to do the work yourself, but for the rest of us I'd rather avoid the hassle.

This is the key. Manuals very rarely leak oil, and don't suffer too badly if it's never changed (some don't have a drain plug after all).

Auto boxes, on the other hand, can lose oil through external coolers, etc., it has a much harder life, collects more contaminants and the setup on the Omega seems almost designed to promote neglect because the fluid is so difficult to check, top up and change.

A well looked-after auto will always outlast the clutch on a manual but once it starts to wear, instead of having one wear item that's easily changed, you're into a complex overhaul. Both are gearbox-out jobs anyway, though :-/


Kevin

In my limited experience I think it's got a lot to do with the simplicity of it. A manual box is simply a set of gears in a constant mesh, with some selector forks to move the input/output shafts around. Apart from the synchromesh to allow non-RPM matched shifts, it's barely changed in terms of the fundamental design since its inception. Hence, there's very little to actually go wrong, as long as the gears are engineered to be strong enough for the engine's torque output.

Autos on the other hand have all manner of hydraulics inside there, with various high and low pressure parts, clutch bands, etc. With many more moving parts, it's inevitably going to have more potential failure points. Also with the oil being shared between the gearbox and the torque converter, which is dissipating a large amount of power from the engine in the form of heat due to the slippage, means that driving it hard gets the entire oil for the transmission very hot, which I doubt does it much good.

And that's before you even consider the electrics, which we all know are an achilles heel in many modern cars. Even if the mechanicals are OK, how often do we hear of selector switch failures in Omegas? Granted that's probably down to (yet another) stupid design decision -- why the hell is it underneath the car exposing it to the elements? I guess it's the same reason the handbrake adjuster is there, to make it as inaccessible as possible.

It'll be interesting to see how the SMG II gearboxes hold up over time as they get older. The actual gearbox part itself shouldn't have any problems, as  it's basically just a normal manual box. But all the hydraulics and electronics to do the shifting are much closer to what you'd find in an auto, and I suspect we'll start seeing failures in those as they get over 100k miles. They don't have the oil heating and contamination issues though, so maybe not. I also wonder how the clutch will hold up, seeing that every shift should be a "perfect" one, although the launch control (dumps the clutch at 5,000 RPM from standstill) certainly won't help!

BTW I think you're perhaps being a little optimistic in saying a looked-after auto will always outlast the clutch in a manual. Mine lasted 170k, and that wasn't pussy-footing it around. Yes, some autos will last that long with regular fluid and filter changes, but I expect quite a few would still experience failures. And at £180 inc labour for a new clutch kit that should last another 170k along with the gearbox, it still works out a lot cheaper to keep the manual box maintained and on the road.
« Last Edit: 25 January 2008, 11:47:38 by Paul_M »
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Taxi_Driver

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Re: off to the Police auction tonight....
« Reply #24 on: 25 January 2008, 14:08:25 »

Well tunnie, did you buy anything??  :-/
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Kevin Wood

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Re: off to the Police auction tonight....
« Reply #25 on: 25 January 2008, 14:36:06 »

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It'll be interesting to see how the SMG II gearboxes hold up over time

Yep. Not sure how I feel about those. Never driven one, in all honesty, but if the car's going to have essentially a manual gearbox and clutch why have all that complexity? Yes, I'm sure you can achieve very quick changes but does that really make much difference on the road once the novelty has worn off? And is it great when changing up at the rev limiter but awful when in traffic? :-/

I'd also have to be convinced it has better wear characteristics than conventional sequential boxes, and that the rest of the drivetrain doesn't get killed by those fast changes!

Part of the satisfaction of making decent shifts, matching the revs by blipping the throttle when downshifting, etc. is honing the required skills to do it manually. Sitting in an armchair and watching a computer do it is surely getting back to what you get with a conventional auto?

Kevin
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Paul M

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Re: off to the Police auction tonight....
« Reply #26 on: 25 January 2008, 16:54:17 »

I agree with most of what you're saying. I shouldn't bash SMG (or DSG) as I've never driven one. But I'm sceptical as to how much I'll enjoy it, as I like selecting the cogs by hand, having the freedom to jump several gears at once (which I do quite a lot), and having full control of the clutch. I heel-toe pretty much all the time in the BMW, less so in the Omega because the pedal layout isn't amenable to it making it more difficult.

I presume your Westfield has a bike gearbox or similar sequential setup, so you'll realise just how good those boxes can be. The box in my R1 is fantastic, you can clutchless upshift it in the blink of an eye with just a gentle roll-off of the power, so you barely lose anything in acceleration by shifting. The movement is really short and precise too. You lose the ability to jump several gears at once, but you gain so much in performance and precision that it doesn't matter. I doubt it would work in a normal car though, as it probably couldn't handle the weight and torque, plus the ratios have to be very close together for the clutchless upshifting to work, which wouldn't work well in a normal car -- a sports bike's 1st gear is quite high as it would be useless otherwise, it would lift the front end far too easily. Similarly 6th gear is quite low as you have 12000+ RPM to play with, hence why the ratios are really close.

On your last comment I must add a saving grace that makes SMG far preferable to a conventional auto to me -- that is the lack of a torque converter. It's the main reason I still stongly dislike even "steptronic" or "tiptronic" or whatever marketing name they're using this week, basically autos that you can tell the computer that you'd like it to change. But you still get that elastic band effect when adjusting the throttle, and it's something I detest when changing speed a lot like on a windy road. It's great for those who want a super smooth gearchange as it dampens out any jerkiness, but for spirited driving it's a horrible thing. Give me the jerkiness of a proper clutch any day.

Hence I'd be quite willing to give SMG or DSG a go with an open mind, but I know anything with a torque converter will piss me off pretty quickly.
« Last Edit: 25 January 2008, 17:00:59 by Paul_M »
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tunnie

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Re: off to the Police auction tonight....
« Reply #27 on: 25 January 2008, 17:14:43 »

well back...

Omega wise? A 1999 CD spec mini-facelift went though, 120k odd miles i think, went for £300, looked tidy.

x-plod facelift x plate estate, but this must have been their skid pad car, headlights removed and replaced with black plastic, inner wheel arching was hanging out, racing slicks on the back, and very rough body work.

Another x-plod also facelift, this one had A pilla damage, general shed really, went for £525  :o :o :o - on a X plate too.

Saw loads of 330d & 530d's and some Jags used to support the PM.

2003 530d with 67k on the clock in a grey/silver colour, fairly tidy, went for £5k  - Cheapest AT version was 8k in retail spec.

2004 330d Tourings, needed a tad of tidying up, went for 6k


The 530d's pulling out, where super, super smooth!! no way could you tell that was a tractor if it was de-badged.

Seams large engined cars went for the best value, lots of interest in 4x4's and small diesels.

« Last Edit: 25 January 2008, 17:15:03 by tunnie »
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Kevin Wood

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Re: off to the Police auction tonight....
« Reply #28 on: 25 January 2008, 18:26:37 »

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I presume your Westfield has a bike gearbox or similar sequential setup, so you'll realise just how good those boxes can be.

Nope. Just a standard Ford 5 speed MT75 as fitted to the later Sierra, Grandada and Transit (the shame!). While sequential gearboxes are lovely they are extremely expensive (unless they come with a bike engine attached) and don't do a lot of miles between rebuilds so, given that mine does mostly road miles I'm happy with a standard gearbox. Temptation to upgrade is always there though. The one thing I would change is the ratios. A first gear designed for caravan pulling is just a joke in a 650kg car with 200 BHP. Unfotunately that means changing to an older type of gearbox for me because gear kits are scarce for the box I've got. Should have done my homework when I built it. ::)

Quote
I doubt it would work in a normal car though, as it probably couldn't handle the weight and torque, plus the ratios have to be very close together for the clutchless upshifting to work, which wouldn't work well in a normal car -- a sports bike's 1st gear is quite high as it would be useless otherwise, it would lift the front end far too easily. Similarly 6th gear is quite low as you have 12000+ RPM to play with, hence why the ratios are really close.

They work surprisingly well in a car once you've got it rolling. Not ideal in traffic or on the motorway for the reasons you have stated. Cruising at 9000 RPM is a bit wearing but if mine were predominantly a track toy I'd have one like a shot.

Quote
On your last comment I must add a saving grace that makes SMG far preferable to a conventional auto to me -- that is the lack of a torque converter. It's the main reason I still stongly dislike even "steptronic" or "tiptronic" or whatever marketing name they're using this week, basically autos that you can tell the computer that you'd like it to change. But you still get that elastic band effect when adjusting the throttle, and it's something I detest when changing speed a lot like on a windy road. It's great for those who want a super smooth gearchange as it dampens out any jerkiness, but for spirited driving it's a horrible thing. Give me the jerkiness of a proper clutch any day.
Well, autos are best left as autos, IMHO. Whether you or the ECU decide when to change makes little odds so tiptronic shifts and the like are just gimicks. Another toy that only takes 20 lines of code in the autobox ECU to implement, so comes free. The fact remains that they are limited in the number of ratios available and the torque converter is there to compensate. It's a totally different animal. I like having the auto in my Omega, personally, but I didn't buy it as a sports car.

Kevin
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Jay w

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Re: off to the Police auction tonight....
« Reply #29 on: 26 January 2008, 00:15:32 »

Quote
Quote
It'll be interesting to see how the SMG II gearboxes hold up over time[/quote]

Yep. Not sure how I feel about those. Never driven one, in all honesty, but if the car's going to have essentially a manual gearbox and clutch why have all that complexity? Yes, I'm sure you can achieve very quick changes but does that really make much difference on the road once the novelty has worn off? And is it great when changing up at the rev limiter but awful when in traffic? :-/

I'd also have to be convinced it has better wear characteristics than conventional sequential boxes, and that the rest of the drivetrain doesn't get killed by those fast changes!

Part of the satisfaction of making decent shifts, matching the revs by blipping the throttle when downshifting, etc. is honing the required skills to do it manually. Sitting in an armchair and watching a computer do it is surely getting back to what you get with a conventional auto?

Kevin

put simply....they don't....
friend of mine who owns a garage has 2x330c Bm's with SMG's and both of them have got knackered boxes.

both of them are pump related and both of them have had hard lives, both of them are looking at 1k+ bills......and that is not BM prices

SMG...not for me, sounds costly and is still a gloryfied auto

KISS for me.......Keep It Simple Stupid
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