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Author Topic: 3.2 V6 hard to start on LPG  (Read 3639 times)

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BigCat

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Re: 3.2 V6 hard to start on LPG
« Reply #45 on: 05 September 2011, 22:49:16 »
Oh and the LPG system has been in for three or four years and the coil packs were replaced just before. Plugs were replaced 4 months ago.
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Kevin Wood

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Re: 3.2 V6 hard to start on LPG
« Reply #46 on: 06 September 2011, 10:26:49 »
Sounds to me like it's building up a large fuel trim on LPG which is making starting on petrol harder. It starts on petrol always, so why else would it not start easily if it was previously running on LPG?

Get some live data from the engine ECU, on both petrol and LPG, which I suspect will show fuel trims going awry on LPG then see if you can find some software to talk to the LPG ECU.

If the LPG system previously worked fine, then I suspect something has gone wrong. Either a filter clogged, vapouriser problem or some other restriction causing the fuelling on LPG to have changed from the state when it was set up.
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BigCat

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Re: 3.2 V6 hard to start on LPG
« Reply #47 on: 06 September 2011, 13:36:29 »
Quote
...Either a filter clogged, vapouriser problem or some other restriction causing the fuelling on LPG to have changed from the state when it was set up.
The multivalve failed whilst I was away last year, and I had it replaced at the local BRC agent (the tank is BRC).

The new mulitvalve had two problems: it reads incorrectly on the motorway i.e. if the fuel is consumed fast (it only drops to two out of four green leds when the tank empties) and it regularly gives false "trips" (sets off the empty buzzer) even when full.

I took it to the original LPG fitter in Battersea and asked them to change it. They maintain they did, but I still get exactly the same symptoms  >:(

Could this be the cause of an LPG metering problem?
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Kevin Wood

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Re: 3.2 V6 hard to start on LPG
« Reply #48 on: 06 September 2011, 13:45:20 »
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...Either a filter clogged, vapouriser problem or some other restriction causing the fuelling on LPG to have changed from the state when it was set up.
The multivalve failed whilst I was away last year, and I had it replaced at the local BRC agent (the tank is BRC).

The new mulitvalve had two problems: it reads incorrectly on the motorway i.e. if the fuel is consumed fast (it only drops to two out of four green leds when the tank empties) and it regularly gives false "trips" (sets off the empty buzzer) even when full.

I took it to the original LPG fitter in Battersea and asked them to change it. They maintain they did, but I still get exactly the same symptoms  >:(

Could this be the cause of an LPG metering problem?

We might be onto something here. :y False trips occur when the vapour pressure falls too low for the engine to continue running on LPG.

Give that the multivalve is what caused this problem it would make me wonder if it's not capable of flowing enough liquid to feed the engine. If this is the case, it might well be causing the engine to run lean, and hence trim the fuel to the point where starting becomes awkward.

Gauge readings could well be because a different multivalve has been fitted without the display being calibrated to suit it.

Issues if the fuel is consumed fast make me wonder if the pickup has fallen off the multivalve. In this case, the valve will be delivering vapour instead of liquid. This restricts the flow of fuel causing a loss of pressure (see my first paragraph!) and, if the gas is being consumed quickly, the temperature of the tank can fall so low that the gas can't boil off vapour any more, so the system behaves as if the tank is empty while the liquid level (as shown by the gauge) remains high.

If you take it for a decent run (say a couple of junctions up the motorway at a decent cruising speed) then get out of the car and feel the tank, is it cold, and perhaps showing signs of condensation or frost on the outside? (it should stay at the same temperature as its' surroundings).

It would also be worth checking the temperature of the vapouriser at this point, to make sure that it is piping hot.

Kevin
« Last Edit: 06 September 2011, 13:46:30 by Kevin_Wood »
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feeutfo

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Re: 3.2 V6 hard to start on LPG
« Reply #49 on: 06 September 2011, 14:08:43 »
Or it's just a crap multi valve...? Ime they do trip out to Petrol at the slightest jolt. Cats eyes, bumps, corners even.
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BigCat

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Re: 3.2 V6 hard to start on LPG
« Reply #50 on: 06 September 2011, 16:51:13 »
Quote
Or it's just a crap multi valve...? Ime they do trip out to Petrol at the slightest jolt. Cats eyes, bumps, corners even.
The original multivalve work perfectly, until it stopped completely. I never had any of these problems with it.


Quote
We might be onto something here. :y False trips occur when the vapour pressure falls too low for the engine to continue running on LPG.

Give that the multivalve is what caused this problem it would make me wonder if it's not capable of flowing enough liquid to feed the engine. If this is the case, it might well be causing the engine to run lean, and hence trim the fuel to the point where starting becomes awkward.
That's what I'd wondered.


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Gauge readings could well be because a different multivalve has been fitted without the display being calibrated to suit it.
Yes, I'd reached the same conclusion.


Quote
Issues if the fuel is consumed fast make me wonder if the pickup has fallen off the multivalve. In this case, the valve will be delivering vapour instead of liquid. This restricts the flow of fuel causing a loss of pressure (see my first paragraph!) and, if the gas is being consumed quickly, the temperature of the tank can fall so low that the gas can't boil off vapour any more, so the system behaves as if the tank is empty while the liquid level (as shown by the gauge) remains high.
The only thing that changes with motorway driving is the gauge reading. LPG performance is the same.

I don't think the pickup has fallen off, only because the behaviour hasn't changed since they "changed" it. They took the tank out of the car and re-fitted it a few days later. I suspect they took the multivalve out, couldn't see anything wrong with it and re-fitted the same one, but I do have my suspicions about the multivalve. The BRC chap in Italy muttered something about "might have to find a secondhand/reconditioned unit" when I first spoke to him. (it's not the usual size/type they use down there.)


Quote
If you take it for a decent run (say a couple of junctions up the motorway at a decent cruising speed) then get out of the car and feel the tank, is it cold, and perhaps showing signs of condensation or frost on the outside? (it should stay at the same temperature as its' surroundings).

It would also be worth checking the temperature of the vapouriser at this point, to make sure that it is piping hot.
Chance would be a fine thing, although I have done the vaporiser test and it was very hot to the touch.
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BigCat

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Re: 3.2 V6 hard to start on LPG
« Reply #51 on: 07 September 2011, 00:23:55 »
Ok, the LPG system is an OMVL Dream XXI. You wouldn't believe where I found it... :-[




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Martin_1962

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Re: 3.2 V6 hard to start on LPG
« Reply #52 on: 07 September 2011, 08:27:32 »
Better than in the airbox.

BTW I was threatened with legal action for mentioning the installer. BTW the Police warned him off me for threats.
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BigCat

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Re: 3.2 V6 hard to start on LPG
« Reply #53 on: 07 September 2011, 10:25:10 »
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Better than in the airbox.
It's not too bad actually. They moved the main ECU over and wedged it in Goldilocks snug  ;)
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feeutfo

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Re: 3.2 V6 hard to start on LPG
« Reply #54 on: 07 September 2011, 23:36:03 »
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Quote
Better than in the airbox.
It's not too bad actually. They moved the main ECU over and wedged it in Goldilocks snug  ;)
Well who'd of thought, an ecu in the ecu compartment  :o  ;D

Sadly I don't thing the stag ecu, which we use on here, will fit in there... Never thought to look  ;D
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