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Author Topic: After market alarm  (Read 2492 times)

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kingycos2

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After market alarm
« on: 21 March 2010, 12:18:48 »

My car is going to be parked in a multi story car park 2 days a week, so I want to upgrade the security. Can I just get a CAT 1 alarm fitted and use that fob rather than the vauxhall remote? What problems, if any will I face?
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Andy B

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Re: After market alarm
« Reply #1 on: 21 March 2010, 18:30:06 »

Quote
My car is going to be parked in a multi story car park 2 days a week, so I want to upgrade the security. Can I just get a CAT 1 alarm fitted and use that fob rather than the vauxhall remote? What problems, if any will I face?

Your OE alarm/imobiliser is more than adequate.  ;)  :y
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Dave DND

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Re: After market alarm
« Reply #2 on: 21 March 2010, 20:25:00 »

Quote
Quote
My car is going to be parked in a multi story car park 2 days a week, so I want to upgrade the security. Can I just get a CAT 1 alarm fitted and use that fob rather than the vauxhall remote? What problems, if any will I face?

Your OE alarm/imobiliser is more than adequate.  ;)  :y

Disagree - with every standard fit alarm having the wires in the same places and the same procedure to be followed to disable it, looking at an aftermarket alarm is a very wise investment.

However, avoid the "gimmicky" ones like Clifford, and my personal favourites are the likes of Sigma, Scorpion and GT, but have a word with your local Audio centre for advice on how cars in your area are being targeted, as they may be able to offer some "location specific" advice.
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Andy B

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Re: After market alarm
« Reply #3 on: 21 March 2010, 20:35:54 »

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..  - with every standard fit alarm having the wires in the same places and the same procedure to be followed to disable it, looking at an aftermarket alarm is a very wise investment. .......

While I would completely agree with that statement if I was protecting an expensive exotic super car or other very expensive car ..... were talking here about an Omega which is going to be 7 yrs old at least. They already have a chip that talks to it's own ECU & I really can't see anyone going to the effort of bringing their own pre-prepared engine/alarm/what-ever ECU to nick an Omega.  ;)  ;)  ;)
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Dave DND

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Re: After market alarm
« Reply #4 on: 21 March 2010, 22:24:07 »

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..  - with every standard fit alarm having the wires in the same places and the same procedure to be followed to disable it, looking at an aftermarket alarm is a very wise investment. .......

While I would completely agree with that statement if I was protecting an expensive exotic super car or other very expensive car ..... were talking here about an Omega which is going to be 7 yrs old at least. They already have a chip that talks to it's own ECU & I really can't see anyone going to the effort of bringing their own pre-prepared engine/alarm/what-ever ECU to nick an Omega.  ;)  ;)  ;)

OK, lets think about that then. If you own an expensive car, a Ferrari for instance, its not going to be taken by a joyrider or spotty teen - its going to be taken by a pro, and no matter what security you have, if they want it - they will get it, so you are almost better off not putting anything on it at all.

If however, you own a cheapie run of the mill car, say a certain model of Ford, then every teenage joyrider is going to know that he can disable your immobiliser by shorting out two of the fuses and removing a third from the car and have it away within a few minutes. Carry an ecu? Stop beleiving the crap you see on american films !!

So the cheapie car has gone. Now think of the same joyrider who wants to nick a common car (so plentifull that there are many that they can practice on) and also one that has a fair bit of grunt under the bonnet, so much in fact that they are favoured by the local plod, so guess which car they are going to go after? beleive me, Omegas and T5 Volvo`s are exceptionally easy to start and take away within a few minutes due to the tricks that have been learnt over the years in bypassing the standard security. If you think that an Omega is a difficult car to start without the key - think again !! And if you don`t beleive me, then start watching some of the Police chase programmes on Dave, and see how many Omegas are being chased !!

Adding extra security is always advised, something different that will prevent the kid from using the normal tricks on your car, and make him realise that the car next to yours is probably easier to steal.

And the same goes for theft from a vehicle, adding an alarm that is not bypassed by stuffing silver fag paper into the indicators to fuse and silence the system when the alarm goes off will stop the scrotes from spending too much time rummaging through your own car trying to get the goodies out.

Its the older cars that are always targeted by the opportunist thieves, because their owners nearly always have the same view about vehicle security and think that the standard system will be enough to prevent their car from being stolen.

Er . . . . THINK AGAIN  !!!

 ::)
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Andy B

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Re: After market alarm
« Reply #5 on: 21 March 2010, 22:30:30 »

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 Carry an ecu? Stop beleiving the crap you see on american films !!  ......

I don't watch them. That was taken from your implications last time this topic was aired  :y
I'd assumed (right or wrong) that it's easier to nick the keys from the house than to hotwire a transponder type immobiliser .... but I twirl spanners for a living.  ::) :y
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Dave DND

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Re: After market alarm
« Reply #6 on: 21 March 2010, 22:30:38 »

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My car is going to be parked in a multi story car park 2 days a week, so I want to upgrade the security. Can I just get a CAT 1 alarm fitted and use that fob rather than the vauxhall remote? What problems, if any will I face?

Going back to the original question, it would be usefull if you updated your profile, so that we knew what age and model of vehicle you have.

You obviously have a concern about where you are parking your car. To understand your own concerns a little better, Are you more worried about theft OF the vehicle or theft FROM the vehicle ?
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Dave DND

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Re: After market alarm
« Reply #7 on: 21 March 2010, 22:51:56 »

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Quote
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 Carry an ecu? Stop beleiving the crap you see on american films !!  ......

I don't watch them. That was taken from your implications last time this topic was aired  :y
I'd assumed (right or wrong) that it's easier to nick the keys from the house than to hotwire a transponder type immobiliser .... but I twirl spanners for a living.  ::) :y

Keytheft is certainly a major issue for the expensive cars as it means that cars can be taken quickly and undamaged. And with burglaries so rife in the time of recession, finding a set of keys on the way out can be the icing on the cake for a thief.

But a car park full of a similar type of car also means that eventually a method will be worked out by trashing and learning by mistakes on a few cars first.

For instance, I know about a method to open a Peugeot door using nothing but a matchstick that does not cause any damage.

I also know how to gain entry into a Golf GTi using a screwdriver that does not cause any damage

I am aware of similar tricks that can be used on an Omega, but I will not comment on nor discuss any of them on this forum for obvious reasons, save to say that from the knowledge I have picked up over the years I could probably start and drive most of your cars within 15 minutes, considerably faster if I was not concerned about causing any damage in the process.

Not that I am a car thief, but if you are going to offer any form of security advice, then you have to be fully aware of the tricks people use, and how to combat them. I have been on most of the training courses from the security manufacturers, and some of the tricks I have seen have left me speechless.
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Andy B

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Re: After market alarm
« Reply #8 on: 21 March 2010, 22:59:49 »

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 save to say that from the knowledge I have picked up over the years I could probably start and drive most of your cars within 15 minutes, considerably faster if I was not concerned about causing any damage in the process.  ......

Transponders aside, that's one of the main differences. Years ago my neighbour had his Calibre taken from the drive, they popped the handle out with virtually no damgage, triggered the door switches which would have been operated by the key so kidding the alarm that all was well. then they ragged the steering lock & were away. If they'd not wheel spun as they went & nobody would have been any the wiser till much later, but they did & were caught within minutes.  ;)
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kingycos2

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Re: After market alarm
« Reply #9 on: 21 March 2010, 23:10:03 »

Its an omega 3.2 elite, with 19" snowflakes. Just worried about general idiots to be honest. Potential to just nick the car for the wheels, who knows how thieves mind works...
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Andy B

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Re: After market alarm
« Reply #10 on: 21 March 2010, 23:12:11 »

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Its an omega 3.2 elite, with 19" snowflakes. Just worried about general idiots to be honest. Potential to just nick the car for the wheels, who knows how thieves mind works...

Alarms & immobilisers aren't going to safe guard a set of alloys. IMHO   ;)
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Dave DND

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Re: After market alarm
« Reply #11 on: 21 March 2010, 23:20:20 »

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Transponders aside, that's one of the main differences. Years ago my neighbour had his Calibre taken from the drive, they popped the handle out with virtually no damgage, triggered the door switches which would have been operated by the key so kidding the alarm that all was well. then they ragged the steering lock & were away. If they'd not wheel spun as they went & nobody would have been any the wiser till much later, but they did & were caught within minutes.  ;)

But isn`t that exactly my point? That old trick was very common amongst most Vauxhalls of the nineties, with Calibra`s and Chavaliers being nicked by a method that was so simple. And they all had three things in common.

1) they were not expensive cars
2) they were very common Vauxhall cars
3) they all had "standard" Vauxhall security on them

A good aftermarket alarm system would have prevented 99% of those thefts back then, and the same can be said nowadays.

So how do you think the Omega security stacks up then? Do you not think that there are similar ingenious tricks?

Yes, immobilisers have made a big difference, but since they became mandatory back in 1996, things have evolved. Have a trawl on the net, (mainly eastern block websites) and you may come across a device that can now generate a "transponder" code, well certainly something that the vehicle will accept as thinking the correct key is present, and all that is needed to do then is unplug the ignition switch, force the steering lock and car is yours. Price of said device is under $250 - and thats scary !
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Andy B

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Re: After market alarm
« Reply #12 on: 21 March 2010, 23:27:27 »

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Transponders aside, that's one of the main differences. Years ago my neighbour had his Calibre taken from the drive, they popped the handle out with virtually no damgage, triggered the door switches which would have been operated by the key so kidding the alarm that all was well. then they ragged the steering lock & were away. If they'd not wheel spun as they went & nobody would have been any the wiser till much later, but they did & were caught within minutes.  ;)

But isn`t that exactly my point? That old trick was very common amongst most Vauxhalls of the nineties, with Calibra`s and Chavaliers being nicked by a method that was so simple. And they all had three things in common.

1) they were not expensive cars
2) they were very common Vauxhall cars
3) they all had "standard" Vauxhall security on them

A good aftermarket alarm system would have prevented 99% of those thefts back then, and the same can be said nowadays.

So how do you think the Omega security stacks up then? Do you not think that there are similar ingenious tricks?

Yes, immobilisers have made a big difference, but since they became mandatory back in 1996, things have evolved. Have a trawl on the net, (mainly eastern block websites) and you may come across a device that can now generate a "transponder" code, well certainly something that the vehicle will accept as thinking the correct key is present, and all that is needed to do then is unplug the ignition switch, force the steering lock and car is yours. Price of said device is under $250 - and thats scary !

are you likely to to do so for a car that that costs not much more? (maybe not the car in question) As you said in the beginning re a Ferrari, if they want it ...... they'll take it, irrespective of any alarm fitted. If it's possible to be fitted, then I'm sure it'd be easy to remove ..... GM & others) colour code their wiring to make originalty fairly easy.
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Dave DND

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Re: After market alarm
« Reply #13 on: 22 March 2010, 09:21:07 »

OK, here goes - and apologies for the length of reply

Quote
are you likely to to do so for a car that that costs not much more? (maybe not the car in question) As you said in the beginning re a Ferrari, if they want it ...... they'll take it, irrespective of any alarm fitted.

To have upgraded the security on my old Ferrari, would have cost over four figures - and in my mind it was not worth spending the money, for exactly the same reasons you have said. If they want it, they`ll take it. but lets be clear about this bit, its not the pro`s that you are protecting yourself against, its the opportunists that simply want to rag around the streets and reckoning that they can drive better than plod who are undoubtedly following them.

I also strongly agree that there is a point where an alarm upgrade is fast approaching the cost of some of the cars on here, but thats not to say you have to spend out a lot of money to be better protected - as I`ll explain in a moment.

Quote
If it's possible to be fitted, then I'm sure it'd be easy to remove ..... GM & others) colour code their wiring to make originalty fairly easy

Yes, but not whilst the alarm is currently activating ! You do not want any alarm that is so quick to disable and silence that the thief has time to spend in your car. But an alarm that is correctly fitted may also have a loom of exactly the same colour wires and be fitted in such a way that even if traced back, it would not be simple to see where the original wires were cut and broken into. That is the skills you pay for from a professional alarm fitter, and because of that I would NEVER suggest to self fit an alarm, no matter how good you think you are, as a badly fitted alarm is no more secure than no alarm at all.

OK, so what can you do to improve the Omega security then?

The Omega has a transponder chip inside the key fob that operates the immobilser circuits, and if truth be told, technology has not really progressed enough since it was introduced to warrant the expense of extra immobilisation circuits - they do work fairly well. The Cat 2 immobiliser or the immobiliser on a Cat 1 alarm will not in reality offer anything above what is fitted as standard, so unless your car is something special and a little more desireable than the others, you can forget about this aspect of security.

The alarm side of things though is abysmall - the basic fit alarm is very poor and too easily bypassed for my liking. (but thats not the alarm make I am criticising, just the trimmed down version that they supplied to Vauxhall to make the price competitive) But if you actually wanted to spend out on a new alarm, I would look for a Cat 2>1 upgrade which is usually a good few quid cheaper than a full Cat 1 as it does not have any immobiliser circuits, yet will still give you Cat 1 status for the insurance when used in conjunction with your exisiting OEM immobiliser. But its still not really a cheap option at around £250 ~ £350.

One of the best forms of security I have ever seen, still remains the big yellow clamp that completely encases the steering wheel, and because it spins instead of allowing the wheel to be turned whilst fitted, its almost impossible to wrench off the steering lock. Many of these are insurance approved, but do not confuse them with any form of security bar that goes through the wheel, leaving a nice big "lever" to play with. They also act as a nice visual deterrent - but like everything, there is a downside to them, and that is that drivers get lazy, and cannot be bothered to spend a few minutes fitting them when needed. kingycos2, my advice to you would be to spend out between £60~£80 on one of these Disklok`s if leaving your car in the car park. But look for a bright yellow one, not the dull grey thing from Argos as you want it to be seen from a distance.

And whilst talking about visual deterrants, we all know the obvious advice about bags and laptops on view, but there are others also. Never put an alarm sticker in the window with the make of the security system fitted - why would you want to give the thief a "heads up" as to what he is up against? Also, if you are a sat nav user, clean those messy rings on the window, as that is usually a green light to an opportunist that you may have a nav system in the glovebox or under the seat.

But by far, the best visual deterrant is a 12V £1.99 flashing red LED, availble from Maplins, ebay or similar. Fit it into a switch blank near the stereo or instrument cluster, as that is where the pros stick them for the alarm, and connect it in the following way. Connect the Red (+ve) wire to a permanent 12V supply, and connect the Black (-ve) wire to an ignition fed positive supply. Now some of you are going to say that with both wires connected to positive, that is incorrect - well, no, not in this instance, as when the ignition key is removed, the ignition supply will give enough of a drain to allow the LED to start flashing, as it would if it were an alarm, and will go out as soon as the keys are put in. To the opportunist, this looks like an aftermarket alarm, and if he decides that he does not know what make it is, nor how to get around it, then he may well break into the car next to you instead.

And if that ever happens, then your security has worked and paid for itself ten times over.

 :y

« Last Edit: 22 March 2010, 09:22:02 by Dave_DND »
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Sixstring

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Re: After market alarm
« Reply #14 on: 22 March 2010, 10:27:42 »

Having read this thread carefully, I must comment and add to Dave's reply.
I have spent the last 28 years of my life in an industry that TRIES to prevent Mr or Mrs Scumbag getting their hands on property that is not theirs. Having installed Hundreds, if not over a thousand car immobilizers and alarms and in car kits etc in my time, what Dave says is totally correct. I too have a few "tricks" to get in a car, start it, and drive it away with little or no damage to the vehicle, and unfortunately, all OE factory fit devices are quite easily bypassed with only a little knowledge (easily gained in one of her majesty's "hotels") however......a cheaply obtained device that cuts the feed to the fuel pump or ecu in some way , or even just the coil pack feed CAN and WILL stop a casual theif, even if he knows the OE system and gains entry to the car and tries to start it.  But one thing must be understood. IF A THIEF WANTS YOUR CAR BADLY, HE WILL GET IT. even if he has to pick it up with a hiab and break into it later. A simple hi-brite blue l.e.d. flashing (or two) will deter 80% of car thieves, you only have to class the other 20% as "pro's")

How much (£) do you love your car........................
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