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[Varche]

Follow on from Albs "Where credit due" thread.

Here is my take on what has happened.

Cameron (quite rightly) has refused to hand over the proceeds of a Tobin tax on the beloved banks to fund the eurozone. That would be directly at the expense of our pension funds.

However by doing so he has now seriously affected our ability to trade with Europe. Currently 50% of our trade is with the euro zone. Telecoms, medical stuff to name two. Some will continue but you can bet your bottom dollar (euro?) that in future contracts will be steered to Euro suppliers. This might be hard for Brits to understand as Britain isn't a partisan country ( look at the origin of all the stuff on the shelves of supermarkets for proof). People buy from people. So in future Britain is going to have to trade more with none Eurozone countries to make up the difference.

So lets develop our trade links with India, China, Brazil and so on.
Lets get the banls funding business and exports
Lets tax the banks more to help pay for dragging Britain out of its mess
Lets not hear any more non partisan stuff about banks pulling out of Britain.

Make no mistake the banks now owe Britain BIG time as without their trade and lobbying, Cameron for certain would have gone along with the EU. They are the only reason he didn't.

[Nickbat]

Follow on from Albs "Where credit due" thread.

Here is my take on what has happened.

Cameron (quite rightly) has refused to hand over the proceeds of a Tobin tax on the beloved banks to fund the eurozone. That would be directly at the expense of our pension funds.

However by doing so he has now seriously affected our ability to trade with Europe. Currently 50% of our trade is with the euro zone. Telecoms, medical stuff to name two. Some will continue but you can bet your bottom dollar (euro?) that in future contracts will be steered to Euro suppliers. This might be hard for Brits to understand as Britain isn't a partisan country ( look at the origin of all the stuff on the shelves of supermarkets for proof). People buy from people. So in future Britain is going to have to trade more with none Eurozone countries to make up the difference.

So lets develop our trade links with India, China, Brazil and so on.
Lets get the banls funding business and exports
Lets tax the banks more to help pay for dragging Britain out of its mess
Lets not hear any more non partisan stuff about banks pulling out of Britain.

Make no mistake the banks now owe Britain BIG time as without their trade and lobbying, Cameron for certain would have gone along with the EU. They are the only reason he didn't.

Sorry, Varche, but that's plain wrong, IMHO. Remember that any exports from the UK that go through Rotterdam etc. on their way to other parts of the world are classed as trade with EU, so it's a lot less than 50%. Plus, we are net importers from the EU. Thirdly, no European companies are going to refuse to trade with us...I can hardly imagine Bavarian motor companies wanting to slash their export trade. Fourthly, our trading arrangements are largely governed by WTO, not EU agreements.

Finally, it's all very well and good saying the banks have to pay for this, that and the other, but they happen to hold the accounts and pensions of private individuals like you and me. Be careful what you wish for.     

[Kevin Wood]

Right or wrong, the eurozone is likely to go down the swanny sooner or later so we could do with our eggs in a few more baskets anyway.

Developing trading partners outside the EU is therefore a sensible plan. Do we still have the power to negotiate with them directly, though?

[cem_devecioglu]

Follow on from Albs "Where credit due" thread.

Here is my take on what has happened.

Cameron (quite rightly) has refused to hand over the proceeds of a Tobin tax on the beloved banks to fund the eurozone. That would be directly at the expense of our pension funds.

However by doing so he has now seriously affected our ability to trade with Europe. Currently 50% of our trade is with the euro zone. Telecoms, medical stuff to name two. Some will continue but you can bet your bottom dollar (euro?) that in future contracts will be steered to Euro suppliers. This might be hard for Brits to understand as Britain isn't a partisan country ( look at the origin of all the stuff on the shelves of supermarkets for proof). People buy from people. So in future Britain is going to have to trade more with none Eurozone countries to make up the difference.

So lets develop our trade links with India, China, Brazil and so on.
Lets get the banls funding business and exports
Lets tax the banks more to help pay for dragging Britain out of its mess
Lets not hear any more non partisan stuff about banks pulling out of Britain.

Make no mistake the banks now owe Britain BIG time as without their trade and lobbying, Cameron for certain would have gone along with the EU. They are the only reason he didn't.

Varche, banks is not the only factor, it would be a political suicide if he signed..  (although I'm not sure for his future, as system designers sooner or later will put the bill on his table) .. 
 
Another primary factor is UKs trade would also be highly affected from this tax..
 

[cem_devecioglu]

Right or wrong, the eurozone is likely to go down the swanny sooner or later so we could do with our eggs in a few more baskets anyway.

Developing trading partners outside the EU is therefore a sensible plan. Do we still have the power to negotiate with them directly, though?

answer is yes..  but with the risk of making big boys angry at you

[cleggy]

One thing to ask yourself is Exactly What Is The EU?

IMHO Mostly tin pot little countries wanting to join a club with one or two big boys for what they can get out of it.

DISCUSS

[Sir Tigger KC]

The UK is a huge consumer market and I don't buy this argument that individual companies will stop trading with Britain due to politics.... 

Many of the cars on Britains roads are German and French, the Boilers that heat our homes are German, Dutch or Italian and so it goes on!! As Nickbat says are BMW or VAG going to stop selling cars here because Cameron and Merkozy have fallen out? I think not!! 

If Eurozone countries start putting trade barriers up then that is directly against the spirit of the whole European project anyway so we're better off out!  Britain should stop gazing into the European navel and look to the wider world!! Be bold and brave Britain!!! 

[Varche]

The UK is a huge consumer market and I don't buy this argument that individual companies will stop trading with Britain due to politics.... 

Many of the cars on Britains roads are German and French, the Boilers that heat our homes are German, Dutch or Italian and so it goes on!! As Nickbat says are BMW or VAG going to stop selling cars here because Cameron and Merkozy have fallen out? I think not!! 

If Eurozone countries start putting trade barriers up then that is directly against the spirit of the whole European project anyway so we're better off out!  Britain should stop gazing into the European navel and look to the wider world!! Be bold and brave Britain!!! 

You and Nickbat are missing the point.  The key thing to getting the country back on its feet are EXPORTS. Any fool country can import. That costs real money. What I am saying is that if a bunch of Germa etc suits are sat around a dinner table deciding who to offer contracts to for a new high speed rail network in Germany or a new Internet hub in Toulouse British companies will now be way down the list. Might be against the spirit of the "EU" but European countries are very nationalistic. Britain mostly is not regardless of how individuals on this forum may feel - me included.

As Nickbat says are BMW or VAG going to stop selling cars [/highlight]here because Cameron and Merkozy have fallen out? I think not
A better way of phrasing that might have been " Are Brits going to stop buying BMW or VAG products because cameron and Merkozy have fallen out? I think not" And that is the problem

[cleggy]

The UK is a huge consumer market and I don't buy this argument that individual companies will stop trading with Britain due to politics.... 

Many of the cars on Britains roads are German and French, the Boilers that heat our homes are German, Dutch or Italian and so it goes on!! As Nickbat says are BMW or VAG going to stop selling cars here because Cameron and Merkozy have fallen out? I think not!! 

If Eurozone countries start putting trade barriers up then that is directly against the spirit of the whole European project anyway so we're better off out!  Britain should stop gazing into the European navel and look to the wider world!! Be bold and brave Britain!!! 

You and Nickbat are missing the point.  The key thing to getting the country back on its feet are EXPORTS. Any fool country can import. That costs real money. What I am saying is that if a bunch of Germa etc suits are sat around a dinner table deciding who to offer contracts to for a new high speed rail network in Germany or a new Internet hub in Toulouse British companies will now be way down the list. Might be against the spirit of the "EU" but European countries are very nationalistic. Britain mostly is not regardless of how individuals on this forum may feel - me included.

As Nickbat says are BMW or VAG going to stop selling cars [/highlight]here because Cameron and Merkozy have fallen out? I think not
A better way of phrasing that might have been " Are Brits going to stop buying BMW or VAG products because cameron and Merkozy have fallen out? I think not" And that is the problem

We're bottom of list for our own contracts... BOMBARDIER

[Sir Tigger KC]

Imports and Exports go hand in hand. As said if the Eurozone countries start putting up trade barriers either directly or surreptitiously then we're better off out.  Part of the problem is that Britain has always stuck to (or hid behind) EU rules and using the high speed train example, the Germans would never have awarded a contract to Bombardier, even if they could do a cheaper and better job than a German company. 

[Rods2]

We are already bottom of the lists in most EU countries, when it comes to big projects, the French in particular interpret EU single market rules and subsidies in their own unique way,  (not to their country's disadvantage, it case you hadn't noticed  ) so what is going to change? 

EUSSR is a busted flush, it is just a question of when it implodes as they had not carried the electorate along with them, in much the same way as the USSR. You can get away with this to a degree if the population are financially comfortable and happy, but as living standards fall dramatically over the next 10 years in Europe (including the UK) and the PIIGS have every more unrealistic austerity measures applied by Germany the EU under this new stability pact, it will result in major uprisings in many EU countries. 

The old financial stability rules of under 3% deficits and less then 60% debt to GDP have been with the EU since the ERM days with fines of up to 2% of GDP, why was it not imposed to stop what has happened now? Because virtually all of the Eurozone countries haven't and don't comply, it was effectively dropped when Germany and France broke the rules and told the EU that you are not going to fine us.  So having even tougher rules is a joke, 0.5% budget deficit and max 60% debt which France doesn't meet 82% debt to GDP and 4.5% deficit and Germany doesn't either with 1% deficit and 83% debt.

In reality all they are doing is trying to flatter and convince the markets that the EU finances will improve (they won't) to convince the markets to support the Euro to stop it failing (they won't) and to try to make it look like the EU politicians have now got a grip on the crisis (they haven't).

The new rules were deliberately setup and imposed by the French and Germans to make the UK use it veto. Why? So all of the headlines for the next few days (France and Germany hope for the next few weeks and months) is on the UK's relationship with the EU and not on the failing Euro. I expect the markets will have woken up to this by at the latest midday Monday. 

For those of you that like a good Brian Rix farce, here is the EU statement on the new rules. The opening paragraph is a good joke in its own right. 

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cms_data/docs/pressdata/en/ec/126658.pdf