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[Entwood]

It is really good to see so many experts on Law and it's enforcement here on OOF

Just a shame that none of you appear to have the slightest knowledge, or interest, in the accuracy of your pontifications.

Quite amazing really, how the same people are wrong about the same things on so many similar occasions ..... 

but if it makes you feel better......

[cleggy]

Entwood,
So exactly what is your point??
I don't profess to be an expert in Law or its Enforement I can only comment on what I see, and believe as a member of the public..
My personal experience of our boys in blue is that over the years they have gone for for the easy life to manage statisitcs. I do know that in a crisis they go above and beyond. When it comes to everyday criminality they are worse than useless PSO ( or whatever they call plastic coppers)  are a complete waste of time and money, get more Bobby's on the beat.
The judges and courts need to get real to PUNISH & DETER.
Now if you know better then I am more than happy to listen to your solution to this crazy judicial system of ours. For examle why do we sentence people to a term of imprisonment knowing full well they will serve half of it, and at least a third of the remaining in an open prison in relative luxury to the conditions they live in on the outside.

We do not need Liberal attitudes when it comes to protecting society

[tigers_gonads]

Imho, the general policeing in this country varies depending on where you live Entwood.

In a relitive sleepy hollow like were you live, the police may pretty aproachable, easy to get on with and do a reasonable job.
But ................... If you go out into the bigger citys, the policeing is a joke 

When you have to put up with it on a day to day basis then read about some of the thinks that are going on in this country, you tend to vent your spleen a little 

[Entwood]

Ok .. in simple terms... complaints in this, and other threads over "justice" (?)... although vigilante might be more appropriate sometimes... always revolve around inadequate punishment and the "letting off" of people ... even when not proven guilty.

So .. some FACTS .. not suppositions or conversations on the "outrage bus"

1. The police in the England & Wales do NOT, and CANNOT, prosecute anyone. They investigate an incident and pass the papers to the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) for an adult, or the Youth Offending Team (YOT) for a youth (under 18), the YOT will confer with CPS on some matters but not all. IT IS NOW OUT OF POLICE HANDS.

2. The CPS/YOT will read and analyse the police file and decide the charges, if any. No one else has any input

3.The case will then proceed via certain levels, Magistrates Court or Youth Court, Crown Court and at any time the case can be dropped by CPS or the Defendant can plead guilty at which case things stop. If the case goes to Trial and a Guity verdict is passed a sentence can made.

4. Both Magistrates Courts and Crown Courts are limited BY LAW to the sentences they can pass, and the Structured Sentencing Rules they MUST apply. There is very little "wriggle room" in those rules.

5. The Sentencing Guidlines Council produce the rules .. and that is a body set up by Parliament ... yup .. the government that was voted in lead by a certain Mr Blair, so lets have no rubbish about "our Dave" being soft .. the damage was done way before him.

6. Youth Courts/YOT are also controlled by the same rules.

7. The Press you all like to quote, and apparently believe, exist to sell newspapers, and therefore print what you want to read, which is a long way from the truth in many cases. It does not make good sense for them to print "The magistrates were not allowed to sentence this man to 10 years for assault as Mr Angry wanted but under the guidlines could only fine him for spitting".. but the headline "man who spat on child let off lightly" will sell more papers.

8. Finally, the Police, Judges, Magistrates, YOT, CPS, even the MP's who draft the rules are all Human Beings and quite capable of making mistakes ... I note the Outrage bus like to blame "THE police" THE government" "THE courts" .... these items don't exist as thinking entities .. but are a collection of people doing their best within the rules they are constrained by.

If you want it different go to Syria and see what a Dictatorship is like.

For those who might be interested ..

http://sentencingcouncil.judiciary.gov.uk/sentencing-guidelines.htm

[tigers_gonads]

Kin ell Nige, deep breath 

Fully understand where your coming from and agree 100% but at the end of the day, the police represent the face of the legal system and thus tend to get some stick over things like this.

[millwall]

Ok .. in simple terms... complaints in this, and other threads over "justice" (?)... although vigilante might be more appropriate sometimes... always revolve around inadequate punishment and the "letting off" of people ... even when not proven guilty.

So .. some FACTS .. not suppositions or conversations on the "outrage bus"

1. The police in the England & Wales do NOT, and CANNOT, prosecute anyone. They investigate an incident and pass the papers to the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) for an adult, or the Youth Offending Team (YOT) for a youth (under 18), the YOT will confer with CPS on some matters but not all. IT IS NOW OUT OF POLICE HANDS.

2. The CPS/YOT will read and analyse the police file and decide the charges, if any. No one else has any input

3.The case will then proceed via certain levels, Magistrates Court or Youth Court, Crown Court and at any time the case can be dropped by CPS or the Defendant can plead guilty at which case things stop. If the case goes to Trial and a Guity verdict is passed a sentence can made.

4. Both Magistrates Courts and Crown Courts are limited BY LAW to the sentences they can pass, and the Structured Sentencing Rules they MUST apply. There is very little "wriggle room" in those rules.

5. The Sentencing Guidlines Council produce the rules .. and that is a body set up by Parliament ... yup .. the government that was voted in lead by a certain Mr Blair, so lets have no rubbish about "our Dave" being soft .. the damage was done way before him.

6. Youth Courts/YOT are also controlled by the same rules.

7. The Press you all like to quote, and apparently believe, exist to sell newspapers, and therefore print what you want to read, which is a long way from the truth in many cases. It does not make good sense for them to print "The magistrates were not allowed to sentence this man to 10 years for assault as Mr Angry wanted but under the guidlines could only fine him for spitting".. but the headline "man who spat on child let off lightly" will sell more papers.

8. Finally, the Police, Judges, Magistrates, YOT, CPS, even the MP's who draft the rules are all Human Beings and quite capable of making mistakes ... I note the Outrage bus like to blame "THE police" THE government" "THE courts" .... these items don't exist as thinking entities .. but are a collection of people doing their best within the rules they are constrained by.

If you want it different go to Syria and see what a Dictatorship is like.

For those who might be interested ..

http://sentencingcouncil.judiciary.gov.uk/sentencing-guidelines.htm

rubbish and you know it  they are not consistent in sentancing  example white girl in eltham slaps a muslim for gobbing off  white girl gets 4 months in prison  the white girl in question has no previous convictions    group of muslim girls beat the shit out of a white girl and get away as they are not used to drinking    now tell me theres not something wrong with the whole legal system in this country

[millwall]

Imho, the general policeing in this country varies depending on where you live Entwood.

In a relitive sleepy hollow like were you live, the police may pretty aproachable, easy to get on with and do a reasonable job.
But ................... If you go out into the bigger citys, the policeing is a joke 

When you have to put up with it on a day to day basis then read about some of the thinks that are going on in this country, you tend to vent your spleen a little 

the old bill where i live do a great job and take a no nonsense approach  but go to places a little more into central london and its tottally different 

[albitz]

I agree with much of what Nige says,but the system and its rules and methods of applying the rules are very badly skewed imo.
Yes the previous govt.did untold damage to real justuce (and just about everything else) in this country, but the new Govt. have it within their powers to change this - within the constraints of EU law of course.
Imo Dave should start by sacking Ken Clarke and replacing him with someone who is still articulate of thought and speech and connected with reality rather than a silly old sod who is completely out of touch.Its sad,because he was a brilliant Chancellor in his day,but he is clueless about Britain and its problems in the 21st century.

[Entwood]

rubbish and you know it  they are not consistent in sentancing  example white girl in eltham slaps a muslim for gobbing off  white girl gets 4 months in prison  the white girl in question has no previous convictions    group of muslim girls beat the shit out of a white girl and get away as they are not used to drinking    now tell me theres not something wrong with the whole legal system in this country

Very tempted to ignore your post as not worth answering, but in the interests of "providing balance" I will give a very short riposte, from the VERY LIMITED KNOWLEDGE I have of the matters (but probably more than you have bothered to research)

The girl in Eltham was charged with a "Racially Aggravated Assault" ... a "specified crime" under Chapter 5 of the Criminal Justice Act and sentenced under section 224 of that act and has a range of discharge to a maximum sentence of 26 weeks custody.

The muslim girls were charged with Common Assault (Section 39) which has a range of discharge to "High Level Community Order"

The decisions on what charges were laid were made by the relevant CPS units. The Judiciary have no say on the charges but must abide by the guidelines when sentencing.

In simple terms .. you and the press are not comparing like with like ... but hey .. as long as the Outrage Bus has something to shout about .... 

and BTW

rubbish and you know it

is more applicable to your response than mine

I, at least, try to respond factually.

[blackviper90210]

rubbish and you know it  they are not consistent in sentancing  example white girl in eltham slaps a muslim for gobbing off  white girl gets 4 months in prison  the white girl in question has no previous convictions    group of muslim girls beat the shit out of a white girl and get away as they are not used to drinking    now tell me theres not something wrong with the whole legal system in this country

Very tempted to ignore your post as not worth answering, but in the interests of "providing balance" I will give a very short riposte, from the VERY LIMITED KNOWLEDGE I have of the matters (but probably more than you have bothered to research)

The girl in Eltham was charged with a "Racially Aggravated Assault" ... a "specified crime" under Chapter 5 of the Criminal Justice Act and sentenced under section 224 of that act and has a range of discharge to a maximum sentence of 26 weeks custody.

The muslim girls were charged with Common Assault (Section 39) which has a range of discharge to "High Level Community Order"

The decisions on what charges were laid were made by the relevant CPS units. The Judiciary have no say on the charges but must abide by the guidelines when sentencing.

In simple terms .. you and the press are not comparing like with like ... but hey .. as long as the Outrage Bus has something to shout about .... 

and BTW

rubbish and you know it

is more applicable to your response than mine

I, at least, try to respond factually.

Entwood, you know more than I on this & so not knocking what you've told us. The question is ref the statement about the white girl slapping a muslim etc. If she was prosecuted on racial grounds, how is it that the group of muslim girls were not prosecuted under the same grounds, for attacking a white girl??

I appreciate we/you can only speculate why, but I think that is why people are getting so irate, there doesn't "appear" to be fairness

IMHO, I feel for the police on the ground as they can only do so much, after that it's pen-pushers that wreck it!

[millwall]

rubbish and you know it  they are not consistent in sentancing  example white girl in eltham slaps a muslim for gobbing off  white girl gets 4 months in prison  the white girl in question has no previous convictions    group of muslim girls beat the shit out of a white girl and get away as they are not used to drinking    now tell me theres not something wrong with the whole legal system in this country

Very tempted to ignore your post as not worth answering, but in the interests of "providing balance" I will give a very short riposte, from the VERY LIMITED KNOWLEDGE I have of the matters (but probably more than you have bothered to research)

The girl in Eltham was charged with a "Racially Aggravated Assault" ... a "specified crime" under Chapter 5 of the Criminal Justice Act and sentenced under section 224 of that act and has a range of discharge to a maximum sentence of 26 weeks custody.

The muslim girls were charged with Common Assault (Section 39) which has a range of discharge to "High Level Community Order"

The decisions on what charges were laid were made by the relevant CPS units. The Judiciary have no say on the charges but must abide by the guidelines when sentencing.

In simple terms .. you and the press are not comparing like with like ... but hey .. as long as the Outrage Bus has something to shout about .... 

and BTW

rubbish and you know it

is more applicable to your response than mine

I, at least, try to respond factually.

no she wasnt   so theres your factual response   people like you make me laugh   come to london for a day  see what really goes on  and im not talking your tourist locations   

[albitz]

I think the point is Nige,the girls who attacked the white girl (calling her a white bitch etc.) should have been charged with racially motivated assault.The CPS should be called to account for why this didnt happen,as should the judge imo who apparently took "not used to affects of alcohol" as mitigation. The whole world knows that alcohol can affect behaviour and judgement,so if people dont want to risk getting into trouble due to its affects, they shouldnt drink it.When courts start accepting drunkeness as mitigation, we are imo on the road to hell in a handcart.

[Entwood]

BV ...

As far as I know, and as you say a mixture of speculation, reading press reports, and talking to local CPS at the time ....

The girl in Eltham was sober, accompanied her physical asault with a lengthy period of verbals (prolonged assault), had time to consider her actions (premeditation).

The muslim girls were drunk, acted spontaneously, and stopped when intervention occured.

My understanding (which could well be very wrong) is that the CPS in the first case viewed the matter as a wholly racial motive .. it was done because the victim was muslim; but the second case was viewed as being anti-social behaviour, it was done because the assailants were drunk and not racially motivated, the use of phrases like "white bitch" does not prove motivation.

I, obviously, have no idea how or why the different CPS offices made those decisions.

HTH

[albitz]

BV ...

As far as I know, and as you say a mixture of speculation, reading press reports, and talking to local CPS at the time ....

The girl in Eltham was sober, accompanied her physical asault with a lengthy period of verbals (prolonged assault), had time to consider her actions (premeditation).

The muslim girls were drunk, acted spontaneously, and stopped when intervention occured.

My understanding (which could well be very wrong) is that the CPS in the first case viewed the matter as a wholly racial motive .. it was done because the victim was muslim; but the second case was viewed as being anti-social behaviour, it was done because the assailants were drunk and not racially motivated, the use of phrases like "white bitch" does not prove motivation.

I, obviously, have no idea how or why the different CPS offices made those decisions.

HTH

You,me and most of the population I should imagine Nige.

[tigers_gonads]

BV ...

As far as I know, and as you say a mixture of speculation, reading press reports, and talking to local CPS at the time ....

The girl in Eltham was sober, accompanied her physical asault with a lengthy period of verbals (prolonged assault), had time to consider her actions (premeditation).

The muslim girls were drunk, acted spontaneously, and stopped when intervention occured.

My understanding (which could well be very wrong) is that the CPS in the first case viewed the matter as a wholly racial motive .. it was done because the victim was muslim; but the second case was viewed as being anti-social behaviour, it was done because the assailants were drunk and not racially motivated, the use of phrases like "white bitch" does not prove motivation.

But it would if somebody said "black or paki" bitch 

I, obviously, have no idea how or why the different CPS offices made those decisions.

HTH

That is one of the problems.
In one area, you get a slap on the wrist.  In another area, you get 12 months in the big house.

Another is race 

If a white skined person punches a person of a different skin colour, there is a very good chance that person will scream racism and push that point. The police / cps have no choice but to treat it as a racist attack or the sh*t would hit the fan.
If the shoe was on the other foot so to speak and a white person screamed racism, he would be laughed at 

The press are discouraged from printing this in case it causes riots and disruptions but those of us who live in so area's know it to be true.

Note ............. I personally couldn't give a toss what colour peoples skin is or what god they worship, I just want one rule for ALL citizens in this country and imo, thats not happening