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[Marks DTM Calib]

Is it just me or are Network Rail being used as scape goats on this one.

for info, the report is here:

http://www.raib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/061211_R232006_Elsenham.pdf

These girls crossed the line whilst the warning lights and sirens were still sounding, they were consequently hit by a train. The signs state:

'cross only when green light shows'

'cross quickly'

The lights and warning buzzer were working.

The 'clause' Network rail were hung on was that there has been a recommendation for some years to fit locking gates where possible. However these have big issues as they can potentialy lock pedestrians inside the crossing.

I hate to say it but, it looks very much like a case of miss adventure rather than a man slaughter issue.

[wakeyomega]

As tragic as the situation is, and no one would deny that, I do tend to agree with you Mark. I fully understand (from similar personal circumstances) exactly how the family feels and why they would fight on for their cause, but there has to be a limit to how far you can go with safety measures?

[cleggy]

I also agree Mark, this is a very sad accident.

The signage was adequate to warn of the danger, and common sense tells one to take care when crossing a road never mind a railway line . Stop Look, and Listen.
Where did all this blame culture come from?

[geoffr70]

Totally agree. Just shows what state this country has got itself into. What about taking personal responsibility for your actions? At 14 they were old enough, and I bet the crossing was local to them so they knew it. Speaking generally, we all know the attitude of youngsters crossing the road etc. It's common sense that one (or two) of them wil come unstuck once in a while. And families, it appears that they become blinkered, their state of mind alters and they just will not accept the fact that the deceased was at least partly to blame, and as you say, look for someone else to blame. I'm surprised they haven't tried to ban trains.

Not very nice though, it shows that depending on who you are and what you're doing, even making a small mistake can have massive, ultimate consequences.

[I_want_an_Omega]

Wasn't it that train "A" came to a stop, so they thought it was clear and train "B" then got them?

I could be wrong of course.

[feeutfo]

Haven't read the 100 pages, but reports on tv last night suggested the gates already had an auto lock device which had failed. The girls waited for a train to pass, then crossed, only go be hit by a second train.

As always with these things it's hard for those experienced in life to understand such oddities. Two youngsters less experienced in life wouldn't necessarily fully understand.
You do have kids yourself, although much younger would they understand precisely what to do? And if they did would they cheat the system, play a dare, mess about on the tracks?... Or think the coast was clear and cross perhaps? The gates have to account for ALL pedestrians... No?
 I did play on a crossing as a lad, slightly unaware of where and what a local lad had in mind as we where on the way to another lads house, we arrived at a pedestrian crossing with a style either side. That was it. He was having great fun placing coins on the track so the train would flatten them. The drivers couldn't see the coin obviously but the look on their faces was telling as they passed us at the side inside the boundary. They where bloody petrified.
 Kids don't get the rules, and if they do, love to brake them without understanding the dangers. I guess Network rail have a responsibility to pedestrians at that crossing, and failed in that responsibility. No real suprise it seems to me, but then I don't have all the facts and haven't read the report....

[tigers_gonads]

Sorry for the loss and all that but I was taught to look both ways 

They wasn't toddlers or young kids, they where 14 years old.

To me, its the claim culture we live in where its ALWAYS somebody elses fault 

[Marks DTM Calib]

I certainly would not allow my children near a crossing given thier age.

The gates in question were not lockable at the time:

the design of the crossing at Elsenham did not physically prevent users from opening the
gate and walking onto the line when a train was approaching

Its fair to say that my eldest (7) is VERY aware of the danger of trains and is very cautious around/near them. Daughter (5) is one who likes to follow the rules (I get shouted at regarding my speed with respect to the signs she sees!).

Bottom line is that the requried information was present, the warning systems were present and sadly a lapse in concentration resulted in thier death.

[Lazydocker]

Must admit, it struck me that they were being used as a scapegoat. As said, the lights and buzzers were still operating correctly and they chose to cross.

[Nickbat]

Network Rail will, of course, be hit by a gigantic fine. So a government-owned, not-for-profit, company will pay the fine into the government coffers and find itself with less money to invest and pay its workers.

If (and judging by the well-informed comments on here, it is a very big "if") anyone was responsible, there should be personal sanctions of some kind, not a corporate fine. 

[feeutfo]

Appologies but you see my point?


So the design failed ? or the design was incorrect?

Sorry but that's too heavy a price for a mere lack of concentration... IMO.


Are all crossings designed the same? Guessing not.
Some will be managed better and worse presumably...?
Which ones work better, do they exceed the design? If they do this one failed... And all that argument.

[feeutfo]

And re the fine, that should go the the families if anyone at all. They won't want it, but how does a fine help the design of the level crossing so it doesn't happen again?

Can anyone here imagine two young girls waiting to cross, paying full attention, silently, concentrating fully on the single task of crossing a rail way line?

Because I can't! They'll be nattering away and giggling like young girls do....trains gone, cross, bang, dead.

I would prefer network rail paid a bit more attention and put the money they spent on defending the case, and hence the money for the fine towards safer crossings.
They sat on their hands it seems to me, and these two paid with their lives.

As said the fine is pointless and was inevitable by all accounts(?) so why waiste even more cash on a lengthy defence?

[bob.dent]

Elsenham station is the local station to where I work, and I've used this crossing a few times. While a tragic accident and I have sympathy for their families, I fail to see how they were unaware that a train was coming. There are warning lights and audible alarms when trains are approaching and by looking left and right (as you would before crossing a road), the track is visible in both directions for some considerable distance. I can only assume that they were chatting and not paying attention, or trying to be brave and get across before the second train came. I fail to see why Network Rail should be held responsible in a situation where they couldn't do much more to have made it any safer IMO. As usual, in our wonderful land of blame culture, someone has to take the can and shell out compensation.

[Lazydocker]

Chris,

As you know, we don't even have barriers on many of our crossings in our area... They simply aren't needed because when the lights flash and the sirens sound, people do as they are supposed to and stop.

OK, there is a speed restriction on the line and it's not a "main line" but we even have many crossings which are just manual gates with no warnings whatsoever... We use common sense and the old fashioned "Stop, Look and Listen" technique

It is a tragedy that anyone has lost their life, perhaps more so for the families they have left behind, but this is an accident caused by their lack of attention.

Are the Highways Agency/Councils to be responsible for any loss of life when people get run over crossing the road? It's the same situation IMO

[Andy B]

... the track is visible in both directions for some considerable distance.  .....

The news last night showed the line from the crossing. The line curves away a very short distance from the crossing & a high speed train would be going over the crossing 3 secs after the driver first sees it.
Everything else though I agree with you though.