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[Andy B]

...... They simply aren't needed because when the lights flash and the sirens sound, people do as they are supposed to and stop.

... We use common sense and the old fashioned "Stop, Look and Listen" technique

..... but this is an accident caused by their lack of attention.

....

Agreed. Too many people are prepared to take a risk. How many times have we seen people on CCTV footage on telly where people have tried to beat the automated barriers as they come down or try to beat the train itself? There'll always be just one winner when something the size & weight of a train hits something.

[Kevin Wood]

Are the Highways Agency/Councils to be responsible for any loss of life when people get run over crossing the road? It's the same situation IMO

Yep, and, if you do run someone over do you then get fined because, retrospectively, you could have bought an Omega made out of cotton wool?

IMHO, Network rail are responsible if the crossing design didn't meet industry standards or if it was defective, I.E. warning lights and sounders not working.

If not, there's an argument for looking at the incident and deciding on improvements to the design of the crossing, of course, but fines are not going to help improve matters.

A desperately sad incident, indeed, but, we all suffer the consequences of our actions, even at 14. If they crossed against sirens and red lights, they would probably have climbed over a locked gate too.

I get a feeling this decision is pandering to those who are, perhaps understandably, baying for blood rather than accepting that it was a tragic accident brought about by a stupid mistake.

[cem_devecioglu]

Is it just me or are Network Rail being used as scape goats on this one.

for info, the report is here:

http://www.raib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/061211_R232006_Elsenham.pdf

These girls crossed the line whilst the warning lights and sirens were still sounding, they were consequently hit by a train. The signs state:

'cross only when green light shows'

'cross quickly'

The lights and warning buzzer were working.

The 'clause' Network rail were hung on was that there has been a recommendation for some years to fit locking gates where possible. However these have big issues as they can potentialy lock pedestrians inside the crossing.

I hate to say it but, it looks very much like a case of miss adventure rather than a man slaughter issue.

when I checked the report my eyes popped off
 
hats off to the staff who write the report

[feeutfo]

Chris,

As you know, we don't even have barriers on many of our crossings in our area... They simply aren't needed because when the lights flash and the sirens sound, people do as they are supposed to and stop.

OK, there is a speed restriction on the line and it's not a "main line" but we even have many crossings which are just manual gates with no warnings whatsoever... We use common sense and the old fashioned "Stop, Look and Listen" technique

It is a tragedy that anyone has lost their life, perhaps more so for the families they have left behind, but this is an accident caused by their lack of attention.

Are the Highways Agency/Councils to be responsible for any loss of life when people get run over crossing the road? It's the same situation IMO

I had deleted a whole section I'd typed that ran along these lines(pardon the pun) if we manage something it has to work, it may be arguable its better not to manage it at all. But clearly management of the issue is in place....equally clearly a pedestrian crossing on a road is not the same.
I guess there's no no need for the adverts on tv asking for care at crossings then? There's numerous cases of accidents on crossings for drivers and pedestrians alike.

[feeutfo]

Chris,

As you know, we don't even have barriers on many of our crossings in our area... They simply aren't needed because when the lights flash and the sirens sound, people do as they are supposed to and stop.

OK, there is a speed restriction on the line and it's not a "main line" but we even have many crossings which are just manual gates with no warnings whatsoever... We use common sense and the old fashioned "Stop, Look and Listen" technique

It is a tragedy that anyone has lost their life, perhaps more so for the families they have left behind, but this is an accident caused by their lack of attention.

Are the Highways Agency/Councils to be responsible for any loss of life when people get run over crossing the road? It's the same situation IMO

I had deleted a whole section I'd typed that ran along these lines(pardon the pun) if we manage something it has to work, it may be arguable its better not to manage it at all. But clearly management of the issue is in place....equally clearly a pedestrian crossing on a road is not the same.
I guess there's no no need for the adverts on tv asking for care at crossings then? There's numerous cases of accidents on crossings for drivers and pedestrians alike.

...and by that I mean, if we are all to adopt the stop look listen approach at rail crossings and nothing else, there must be no need for alarms, lights, gates, adverts on tv and all those accidents at crossings must be some sort of weird freak of nature. Some of which resulted in de railed trains as I recall.

My understanding is, in this case, somebody decided the gates should lock. There by accepting there must be a need for them to lock, for what ever reason. If the lock mechanism fails....

[bigboykarl]

where I live there used to be a few colliery lines and the main sheffield to leeds line..when my children where young I told them the story of Rag-arm who was an old gentleman who saw some children playing on railway lines and as he was trying to chase the children off he fell and a train hit him chopping off both his arms.He died and his ghost wonders the rail lines looking for children playing and when he catches you your arms are torn off and he tries your arms to see if they fit his stumps.. it worked a treat and they never played near the lines..

[Marks DTM Calib]

Chris,

As you know, we don't even have barriers on many of our crossings in our area... They simply aren't needed because when the lights flash and the sirens sound, people do as they are supposed to and stop.

OK, there is a speed restriction on the line and it's not a "main line" but we even have many crossings which are just manual gates with no warnings whatsoever... We use common sense and the old fashioned "Stop, Look and Listen" technique

It is a tragedy that anyone has lost their life, perhaps more so for the families they have left behind, but this is an accident caused by their lack of attention.

Are the Highways Agency/Councils to be responsible for any loss of life when people get run over crossing the road? It's the same situation IMO

I had deleted a whole section I'd typed that ran along these lines(pardon the pun) if we manage something it has to work, it may be arguable its better not to manage it at all. But clearly management of the issue is in place....equally clearly a pedestrian crossing on a road is not the same.
I guess there's no no need for the adverts on tv asking for care at crossings then? There's numerous cases of accidents on crossings for drivers and pedestrians alike.

...and by that I mean, if we are all to adopt the stop look listen approach at rail crossings and nothing else, there must be no need for alarms, lights, gates, adverts on tv and all those accidents at crossings must be some sort of weird freak of nature. Some of which resulted in de railed trains as I recall.

My understanding is, in this case, somebody decided the gates should lock. There by accepting there must be a need for them to lock, for what ever reason. If the lock mechanism fails....

As already stated, the lock mechanism was not fitted at the time of the incident (despite what the media report).

[Marks DTM Calib]

Is it just me or are Network Rail being used as scape goats on this one.

for info, the report is here:

http://www.raib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/061211_R232006_Elsenham.pdf

These girls crossed the line whilst the warning lights and sirens were still sounding, they were consequently hit by a train. The signs state:

'cross only when green light shows'

'cross quickly'

The lights and warning buzzer were working.

The 'clause' Network rail were hung on was that there has been a recommendation for some years to fit locking gates where possible. However these have big issues as they can potentialy lock pedestrians inside the crossing.

I hate to say it but, it looks very much like a case of miss adventure rather than a man slaughter issue.

when I checked the report my eyes popped off
 
hats off to the staff who write the report

The reports they produce are very good and very readable!

Plus all in the public domain.

[TheBoy]

Survival of the fittest.  If you are too stupid to cross prematurely, and not look - even at 125mph you'd see it coming - then that can only be a good thing for the seriously deplenished gene pool.


But in the current culture, an organisation needs to take the flack...

[cem_devecioglu]

Is it just me or are Network Rail being used as scape goats on this one.

for info, the report is here:

http://www.raib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/061211_R232006_Elsenham.pdf

These girls crossed the line whilst the warning lights and sirens were still sounding, they were consequently hit by a train. The signs state:

'cross only when green light shows'

'cross quickly'

The lights and warning buzzer were working.

The 'clause' Network rail were hung on was that there has been a recommendation for some years to fit locking gates where possible. However these have big issues as they can potentialy lock pedestrians inside the crossing.

I hate to say it but, it looks very much like a case of miss adventure rather than a man slaughter issue.

when I checked the report my eyes popped off
 
hats off to the staff who write the report

The reports they produce are very good and very readable!

Plus all in the public domain.

imo, we still have many things to learn from Brits

[D]

Survival of the fittest.  If you are too stupid to cross prematurely, and not look - even at 125mph you'd see it coming - then that can only be a good thing for the seriously deplenished gene pool.


But in the current culture, an organisation needs to take the flack...

Unfortunately I agree with that.

[feeutfo]

Survival of the fittest.  If you are too stupid to cross prematurely, and not look - even at 125mph you'd see it coming - then that can only be a good thing for the seriously deplenished gene pool.


But in the current culture, an organisation needs to take the flack...

Unfortunately I agree with that.

To a point, yes, but even geniuses *uck up from time to time.

... And made mistakes while young and learning. Not sure what gene pool 14 year olds qualify for....?

[albitz]

Survival of the fittest.  If you are too stupid to cross prematurely, and not look - even at 125mph you'd see it coming - then that can only be a good thing for the seriously deplenished gene pool.


But in the current culture, an organisation needs to take the flack...

I find that comment despicable in these circumstances frankly.
I listened to a programme dedicated to this tragedy on the radio today.Railtrack buried the reports their own inspectors had made regarding this station, which were written in  2000 and 2002.The reports stated that the setup was inherently unsafe, and was an accident waiting to happen.It was when, not if.
There was only one ticket office which was at the southbound side of the track,so people who needed to travel north had to cross to buy a ticket,then cross back again after they had done so.
Iirc the two young girls were travelling northbound (to Cambridge ?) on a shopping trip.after buying tickets, the lights etc. were flashing at the gates,their train had just come into the station and came to a stop.It seems they wrongly assumed that to be the reason the lights were warning not to cross and decided to cross back to get on the train. At that moment another train appeared from the opposite direction and hit them. I can only take bobs word for the visibilty,but how long would it take a southbound train travelling at high speed (over 100mph ?) from becoming visible from the gates,to actually being present at the gates ?
The train drivers had been banned from sounding their horns when approaching this station,as it was said to cause annoyance to local residents.
To me,the fact that railtrack hid their own safety reports from the coroner,family solicitors and all other interested parties speaks volumes. Once the reports were discovered,they had effectively hung themselves and rightly so.
I listened to the father of one of the girls being interviewed on the radio today,and tbh,it was just heartbreaking to listen to.

[Dishevelled Den]

A tragic event without doubt but one the causation of which can't be assessed in absolute terms;

The comments - found at section 9 under the heading 'Conclusions' (page 45) - from this Enquiry demonstrates this very well.

http://www.rssb.co.uk/sitecollectiondocuments/pdf/reports/Elsenham-report.pdf


This statement, made by NR chief executive David Higgins, effectively recognises that a problem existed and that such crossings continue to pose a danger;


"This was a deeply tragic event.

"Since this accident in 2005 we have launched a major programme to update the assessments of all our 7,000 level crossings, improving risk management and safety, and we have closed over 500 crossings since 2009.

"When it comes to safety, we will never be complacent and we continue to work alongside local communities, all the relevant authorities and other stakeholders to make our level crossings safer still."


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/network-rail-to-be-prosecuted-over-level-crossing-deaths-6267823.html



Whether or not Network Rail should have had the charges levied as they were very much depends on whatever side of the track people choose to inhabit but it must be important, surely, to demonstrate that when people lose their lives - especially in controversial circumstances - that someone or some organisation must be called to answer for it and sanctioned if they were found to have been negligent or contributory in any way.

[TheBoy]

Survival of the fittest.  If you are too stupid to cross prematurely, and not look - even at 125mph you'd see it coming - then that can only be a good thing for the seriously deplenished gene pool.


But in the current culture, an organisation needs to take the flack...

I find that comment despicable in these circumstances frankly.

Why? Are you a believer in people not having to take responsibility for themselves, and having to be wet nursed all the time.

If these kids were not responsible enough to deal with the path across a railway line, they should not have been out unaccompanied. No IFs or BUTs.

The lights were flashing, I presume that means the sirens were on, and the road barriers were down.  Why did these idiots feel they should cross? Without looking? I'm just the stupid kid from the local comprehensive, but at 14, nae, 5 years old, I had the common sense to cross railway lines and cross roads.


We live in a twisted culture where there always has to be blame, and that that blame has to lie with a corporation.  I'm sure the parents are progressing it, mainly to shift the guilt off them. Maybe they will get some cash to go with it. Our cash.