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[redelitev6]

Are we all getting exited about this? it's happening on May 5th and everyone seems totally underwhelmed by this, is this just a sop to the lib dems?

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Oh yes I am so excited R I am wetting myself!

Can't wait to vote as I love writing that "X" in the box!


No, seriously the turnout will probably be 20% if they are lucky, but I know what I am voting for having studied Politics and worldwide voting systems! 

Leave it all as it is  or you will end up with a far higher proportion of "hung Parliaments", and does anyone want more of what we have now!!

[markfree]

Better to make voting compulsory than fiddle about with the voting system - you get fined if you don't fill in your census form so why can't they apply this to voting.

[mkirky]

Tell me someone you know who has been fined for not filling in the census form i dont think so :-?

[Nickbat]

Are we all getting exited about this? it's happening on May 5th and everyone seems totally underwhelmed by this, is this just a sop to the lib dems?

Not exactly excited. We should be getting a vote on our EU membership, which many want. Instead we get this vote which few want. That's politics for you.

I must say I'm undecided. On the one hand the FPTP system is straightforward and, as many have said, will tend to give working majorities (though not the last time!). On the other hand, people often do not vote for the minority parties, even though they may want to in their heart, because they believe that such a vote would be wasted as "they'll never get in". Under AV, minority parties would do better.

Since I absolutely detest all three major parties, and would wish to see UKIP do well, I am minded to support AV just for that reason alone.

That said, I am underwhelmed by it all and may not even vote.   

[markfree]

Tell me someone you know who has been fined for not filling in the census form i dont think so :-?

I bet you filled in your census form.

[mkirky]

No i did not take me to court along with alot of other people i know

[Richgm]

Am I excited about it?    NO!
Will I go and vote?         YES

The way I see it, most people who are for AV will vote as it's a chance to change the system. The majority of the voting public will be overcome by apathy once again and then moan like anything after the event if the outcome is not what they wanted.

I think AV might have a chance of getting in, but I hope I'm wrong!

[Varche]

Sadly I think there will be a very small turnout.

IMO most people(if they bother to vote) vote either labour or conservative on principle (don't want the current lot, vote for a more enlightened minority party is a wasted vote or my dad always votes for xxxx). A few vote Lib Dem because they don't like labour or conservative. An even smaller minority vote for other parties either because they represent something (e.g. UKIP) or they are making a point.

It would actually be nice to see the system changed so that more of the minority parties could get representation. UKIP might (just might) be able to do something about our parlous state of EU membership if they were in a coalition government. Out of a coalition government there is no chance as we have seen with both labour and the current lot.

Will AV happen? Don't think so. Call me Dave will ensure a good turnout for a no vote.

[Banjax]

No i did not take me to court along with alot of other people i know

why do you even live in a democracy? bet you cant be arsed voting either   


and if you dont vote, dont bitch - you have no opinion on anything dont pretend you do. 

[Banjax]

what is funny is the tories trying to tell us all its far too complicated 

yep 1,2,3.......gets tricky after that - although DC didn't seem to mind AV when he was elected leader of the tories did he?

I dont think this form of AV is much cop but it moves us in the right direction, making every vote at least count, yes people would be free to vote their conscience rather than tactically so you would get a few of the wee diddy parties getting a boost - but if that reflects society then why is that a bad thing? majority of the country is vaguely leftish so i can see why it would kill the tories and hence their resistance to change but if DC wants a big society he has to accept what the big society wants surely 

[mkirky]

So you think you live in a democracy just goes to show how little you know but thats obvious by your posts not just in this thread

[Banjax]

So you think you live in a democracy just goes to show how little you know but thats obvious by your posts not just in this thread

you deny yourself the vote? please dont lecture me about democracy when theres people dying fighting for basic human rights

[MICHELINMAN]

Oh yes I am so excited R I am wetting myself!

Can't wait to vote as I love writing that "X" in the box!


No, seriously the turnout will probably be 20% if they are lucky, but I know what I am voting for having studied Politics and worldwide voting systems! 

Leave it all as it is  or you will end up with a far higher proportion of "hung Parliaments", and does anyone want more of what we have now!!

 

[mkirky]

Census has nothing to do with voting i though you would know that as you seem to think you know everything else
and some of us atually do the fighting not just sit on our arse bitching about it

[Banjax]

Census has nothing to do with voting i though you would know that as you seem to think you know everything else
and some of us atually do the fighting not just sit on our arse bitching about it

bitching about what exactly?

you say we dont live in a democracy - explain please 

[mkirky]

Oh come on you cannot be that nieve

[MICHELINMAN]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

[bigegg]

you say we dont live in a democracy - explain please 

Technically we live in a republic - we vote for representatives who then vote on our behalf for or against legislation.

If we lived in a true democracy, EVERY law would need to pass a referendum before being added to the statute books.

Not a bad thing IMO, and reasonably easy to do with modern technology.

[mkirky]

correct

[Dishevelled Den]

In my view AV/PR will lead to insipid government where everyone and their granny will have their own view of what legislation should be formed and have the power to enforce it.

This invariably results in horse trading between the smaller groups (who will have a level of power far beyond their remit) and the larger parties dependent on their support to remain in government.

Taking the system used in Northern Ireland (a bastardised form of PR) there is little to recommend it.

There's been too much blanking about in this country trying to embrace every opinion known to man in an attempt to comply with the latest trend for 'inclusiveness'  It's about time that politicians started to govern and stopped blanking about with trendy ideas or Machiavellian desires to cement their position in government at all costs.

There is no substitute for strong, capable majority government.

[Banjax]

you say we dont live in a democracy - explain please 

Technically we live in a republic - we vote for representatives who then vote on our behalf for or against legislation.

If we lived in a true democracy, EVERY law would need to pass a referendum before being added to the statute books.

Not a bad thing IMO, and reasonably easy to do with modern technology.

we vote for representatives to pass laws on our behalf, if every law and regulation needed a referendum we'd never get anywhere, if you think those we've voted for arent doing what they said or making a pigs ear of it we have the oppurtunity to vote for anyone whos standing.

the only non democratic process is our membership of the EU, but even there if most people felt that strongly they could sweep an anti europe party like UKIP into power - so yes, unlike a lot of places in the world we do have democracy 

[mkirky]

I think in your mind its a democracy but alot of other people disagree ,we are all allowed our opinion and if you belive what you say you would have to agree

[bigegg]

I think it was Churchill who said that our system is the worst possible type of government.
except for all the others.
Personally, I think that Heinlein had a couple of good ideas:
Don't pass any law without a 2/3 majority
Repeal any law with a 1/3 majority.
Only allow people who have done a (voluntary) 2 year national service to vote. (or hold office).

I also, personally, think that we should have more segregation between the legislature (who make the laws), and the government (who run the country).

[bigegg]

you say we dont live in a democracy - explain please 

Technically we live in a republic - we vote for representatives who then vote on our behalf for or against legislation.

If we lived in a true democracy, EVERY law would need to pass a referendum before being added to the statute books.

Not a bad thing IMO, and reasonably easy to do with modern technology.

we vote for representatives to pass laws on our behalf, if every law and regulation needed a referendum we'd never get anywhere, if you think those we've voted for arent doing what they said or making a pigs ear of it we have the oppurtunity to vote for anyone whos standing.

the only non democratic process is our membership of the EU, but even there if most people felt that strongly they could sweep an anti europe party like UKIP into power - so yes, unlike a lot of places in the world we do have democracy 

agree in general BJ
but in response to the highlighted bit,
Hobson's Choice (or Ford's)
"You can have any colour you like. As long as it's black"
Doesn't matter who we vote for, it's always the government who gets in.

[Dishevelled Den]

I also, personally, think that we should have more segregation between the legislature (who make the laws), and the government (who run the country).

Interesting, would you expand on that a bit Egg?

[Nickbat]

I also, personally, think that we should have more segregation between the legislature (who make the laws), and the government (who run the country).

Interesting, would you expand on that a bit Egg?

Hmm! A large Egg.

I bought a dozen at Tesco today.

Sorry, Den. Been a long day. I know you'll forgive me. 

[albitz]

There are some interesting comments here by politicians who have in thenot too distant past condemned AV, but true to form are now telling us they believe it to be the future of British democracy.Not a belief or principle among them.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1371147/Hypocricy-Alternative-Vote-backers-changed-tune.html

[Dishevelled Den]

There are some interesting comments here by politicians who have in thenot too distant past condemned AV, but true to form are now telling us they believe it to be the future of British democracy.Not a belief or principle among them.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1371147/Hypocricy-Alternative-Vote-backers-changed-tune.html

As soon as I saw Huhne's fizzog, that did for me. [smiley=thumbdown.gif]

[bigegg]

At the moment, we have one bloke who picks a team to manage each department of the government - the cabinet.
He's also the same bloke who (by wielding the "whip") decides what new laws are passed through parliament.
So he controls EVERYTHING, and can pass laws to make sure it stays that way.

why not say that the prime minister and cabinet cannot have any say in parliament about which laws are enacted.

There would have to be some things where the cabinet and parliament would need to interact - whose decision would it be to go to war?

but, ideally the prime minister and cabinet should be forced to work within laws which parliament set, and NOT be able to change laws to suit themselves.

[Dishevelled Den]

I also, personally, think that we should have more segregation between the legislature (who make the laws), and the government (who run the country).

Interesting, would you expand on that a bit Egg?

Hmm! A large Egg.

I bought a dozen at Tesco today.

Sorry, Den. Been a long day. I know you'll forgive me. 

  - I'll happly hear your confession any time Nick - I'm good at soothing fevered brows.

[albitz]

Ben Bradshaw hadnt a good word to say for AV less than 18 months ago. He is now heading up Labours YES campaign.
As for Huhne - there are no words which begin to describe the utter stupidity of the bloke. Rumour has it he is after Cleggs job, hopefully that will finish the Limpdems off once and for all.

[Vamps]

At the moment, we have one bloke who picks a team to manage each department of the government - the cabinet.
He's also the same bloke who (by wielding the "whip") decides what new laws are passed through parliament.
So he controls EVERYTHING, and can pass laws to make sure it stays that way.
why not say that the prime minister and cabinet cannot have any say in parliament about which laws are enacted.

There would have to be some things where the cabinet and parliament would need to interact - whose decision would it be to go to war?

but, ideally the prime minister and cabinet should be forced to work within laws which parliament set, and NOT be able to change laws to suit themselves.

Put like that it rather sounds like a 'dictatorship' to me....

[jerry]

the problem with any democratic  system-leastways this is how it seems to me-is that of large minorities and how their views can be taken into account. At a simplistic level say you have a million people voting for either A or B , even if 90% or whatever vote for A that still leaves a considerable number of people who want B. The real nubb of the matter though is that when it comes to voting most people either are either apathetic or else do not know where to get reasonably unbiased information from in order to help them to make a more informed decision when voting. Throw in the fact that the majority of people will obviously only vote for something that only benefits them personally and no wonder it gets complicated. After all its not like its only a small group of people having a meeting where each person can actively participate in the discussion, its all sort of done by proxy with the issue about how accurately a particular party or person will represent your views being the moot point :-/

[bigegg]

At the moment, we have one bloke who picks a team to manage each department of the government - the cabinet.
He's also the same bloke who (by wielding the "whip") decides what new laws are passed through parliament.
So he controls EVERYTHING, and can pass laws to make sure it stays that way.

Put like that it rather sounds like a 'dictatorship' to me....

we've certainly had some laws passed which were only wanted by a minority of people in this country:

poll tax
clamping
speed cameras
gulf war
afghanistan war

that's off the top of my head.
last two not strictly laws, but forced through parliament by a majority party block vote.

sure there's more.

[Dishevelled Den]

At the moment, we have one bloke who picks a team to manage each department of the government - the cabinet.
He's also the same bloke who (by wielding the "whip") decides what new laws are passed through parliament.
So he controls EVERYTHING, and can pass laws to make sure it stays that way.

why not say that the prime minister and cabinet cannot have any say in parliament about which laws are enacted.

There would have to be some things where the cabinet and parliament would need to interact - whose decision would it be to go to war?

but, ideally the prime minister and cabinet should be forced to work within laws which parliament set, and NOT be able to change laws to suit themselves.

Yes I can see the allure in that following the travesty that was the New Labour experiment.

I can foresee one problem in that if it were left to parliament as a whole to draft new legislation there may well be considerable slippage - too many cooks and all that.

I think it's fair enough for the individuals duly elected on a clear mandate to choose the legislation their ethic dictates (or alter existing legislation to better reflect their ideals) but in essence, governance needs to have a clear driver and that, for me at least, really needs to be the party and, by extension, the leadership chosen by the voters.

I’m not fully discounting your suggestion as I need to think about it a bit more, but I would agree that there is something lacking in the parliamentary system at the moment that allows abuse of process to be practised with impunity.

Such abuse has devalued the sanctity and moral content of this Parliament where personal gain, avarice and lust for power seems to have overridden standards of propriety and good judgement.

[albitz]

I tend to agree with you Bigegg. IT sounds like old fashioned Parliamentary democracy, rather than the recent trend towards decisions being made by a very small "inner circle" who then give the whips the responsibility of doing whatever it takes to make sure the MP,s vote how they are told.

[Dishevelled Den]

I tend to agree with you Bigegg. IT sounds like old fashioned Parliamentary democracy, rather than the recent trend towards decisions being made by a very small "inner circle" who then give the whips the responsibility of doing whatever it takes to make sure the MP,s vote how they are told.

MP,s vote how they are told

This suggests to me that the overall quality of those duly elected is questionable.

If that were to be the case (and I think it is sadly) would they, as a group acting in parliamentary session, have the nous, skill and determination to raise, debate and vote for proposed legislation with any hope of attaining a meaningful result?

6oo (or so) morons - morally challenged, mendacious or generally there for everything but serving the interests of the country - meeting to choose legislation (howsoever apparently democratic) - doesn’t necessarily guarantee that the end result will be worth enacting.

[albitz]

Very true Den, but whats the alternative ?
Personally I think they should just do it my way. Everything would be just fine then.

[Dishevelled Den]

Very true Den, but whats the alternative ?
Personally I think they should just do it my way. Everything would be just fine then.

I don't know how to approach this as a lot depends on the content of those elected - as with much nowadays, the number of people in possession of morals, concern for others and the willingness to do the job they said they'd do seems to be rapidly diminishing.

In the case of your own manifesto, I can say only one thing - Vote early - Vote often.