Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Varche on 17 January 2013, 09:10:30
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Well he has leaked enough to the media for us to already know what he is going to say on this difficult subject
1. We can't do much because we are hogtied in this infernal coalition without which I wouldn't be on the gravy train.
2. There are a lot of people who want Britain out of the EU. I am not one of them as I like all the jaunts to the summits.
3. I want to get re elected (some hope) and so this is what I promise you. We will have a referendum on returning some powers to Britain but only on condition that you all vote me back in - without me having to form a coalition with UKIP or Lib Dems.
I had been looking forward to his speech on Friday but methinks it will be a damp squib. I still stand by my assertion that Britain will be in the Euro in less than five years time (assuming there is a Euro by then).
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As said many times, Cameron will never have an in/out referendum.
The plain facts of the matter.....
People of the UK do not wish to be ruled by Europe.
People of the UK wish to trade with all countries, European and the rest of the world.
Simples. :y
I saw one minister (Irish Republic) at the weekend let it slip about 'When Europe becomes one country'. This was him talking about the chance of UK referendum in any form. Dead against it!!!!
Vote UKIP
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The Doomsayers are out in force and getting plenty of exposure in the media especially the BBC!! ::)
I'm starting to get depressed about it to be honest. :-\ I don't think there ever will be a referendum and certainly not a simple In/Out one! >:( UKIP are merely a sideshow who will split the Tory vote which will let Labour (Or Lab/Lib) in and then we'll be back on the tax and spend merry-go-round, which will eventually lead to an IMF/EU bailout.... >:(
I don't go along with Varche's assertion that a condition of an EU bailout will be Britain's entry to the Eurozone, but it will mean ever closer ties to the EU along the lines of the Banking union, financial tax and yes eventually we'll all be paying a direct PAYE EU tax... >:(
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The Doomsayers are out in force and getting plenty of exposure in the media especially the BBC!! ::)
I'm starting to get depressed about it to be honest. :-\ I don't think there ever will be a referendum and certainly not a simple In/Out one! >:( UKIP are merely a sideshow who will split the Tory vote which will let Labour (Or Lab/Lib) in and then we'll be back on the tax and spend merry-go-round, which will eventually lead to an IMF/EU bailout.... >:(
I don't go along with Varche's assertion that a condition of an EU bailout will be Britain's entry to the Eurozone, but it will mean ever closer ties to the EU along the lines of the Banking union, financial tax and yes eventually we'll all be paying a direct PAYE EU tax... >:(
The reason the tory vote is split is thefault of the tories. They have become the wishy washy party I cannot vote for again. And I have always voted tory since I was 18, now 47.
I am fed up with politicians telling us how good or bad something will be if we change it. The problem is governments and councils should do what the people want, that is what they are there for. If the majority want out of the EU then it should happen whether good or bad.
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The Doomsayers are out in force and getting plenty of exposure in the media especially the BBC!! ::)
I'm starting to get depressed about it to be honest. :-\ I don't think there ever will be a referendum and certainly not a simple In/Out one! >:( UKIP are merely a sideshow who will split the Tory vote which will let Labour (Or Lab/Lib) in and then we'll be back on the tax and spend merry-go-round, which will eventually lead to an IMF/EU bailout.... >:(
I don't go along with Varche's assertion that a condition of an EU bailout will be Britain's entry to the Eurozone, but it will mean ever closer ties to the EU along the lines of the Banking union, financial tax and yes eventually we'll all be paying a direct PAYE EU tax... >:(
The reason the tory vote is split is thefault of the tories. They have become the wishy washy party I cannot vote for again. And I have always voted tory since I was 18, now 47.
I am fed up with politicians telling us how good or bad something will be if we change it. The problem is governments and councils should do what the people want, that is what they are there for. If the majority want out of the EU then it should happen whether good or bad.
I agree Mike....
So basically, we are being told, if we leave, the world will shun us, no-one will trade with us, we will be 'sent to Coventry' we will fall apart. Cobblers....this country is bigger than that, we survived WW2 initially when Europe was part of Germany (and as it again becoming), nobody came to help at the start, but our resolve came through. And it would again :y Its a big wide world out there !!!!!!
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No doubt Camoron will demonstrate once again his skill at speaking out of both sides of his mouth at the same time. ::)
Theres no doubt that UKIP are splitting the Tory vote,but they have little or no chance of winning the next election anyway.It seems that too many people have a sense of entitlement instilled by Labour and they will vote against these bastids "cause they gonna stop my money". Hence,Millipedes new one nation Labour have a huge lead in the polls.
The only hope the Tories have is to generate some decent growth quickly,so they can start throwing money at the money monster before the election - cant see it happening.
The fact that a retard such as Millipede can achieve a huge lead in the opinion polls suggests to me that if the three main parties decide to collude and have a slick high profile pro EU campaign,before announcing a referendum,they may well con enough people into voting the way they want them to.
I hate to have to say it and I hope Im wrong,but that seems to me to be the reality. :(
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This "renegotiation" with the EU is what makes me laugh. Does he expect them to negotiate with him? If so, he's pretty naive. If not, it's another broken promise in the making.
We ARE in the situation that Europe has an established mechanism for taking over powers from our national government thanks to the treaties that new liebore fell for hook, line and sinker. What's he going to do? Go cap in hand to Baroso and ask please, sir, help me out or nobody will vote for me? ;D
The fact of the matter is that the people of the UK want no more EU integration than we have now, and probably less, with a significant minority wanting a complete cutting of ties. For the political classes in the UK, however, withdrawing from the EU agenda is like turkeys voting for Christmas. The EU have cynically ensured that every pro-EU politician gets his bed feathered very nicely when his excession from national politics to the Brussels gravy train takes place.
So, widening gap between what the people want and what parliament is willing to offer them. If that gap gets wide enough, it could turn quite nasty. No wonder councils are turning off the street lights. The next step will be to remove them, before MPs start to get hung from them. ;D
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Camoron is a politician so his speech on Friday will be the equivalent of crossing Bulldog with a Shitzu. >:( >:( >:(
VOTE UKIP
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I am simply going to wait for the outcome of that announcement. Simples, enough has been said already and we can all speculate! :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X ;)
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Quote from: Mantahatch on Today at 10:46:47
Quote from: TiggerHayes on Today at 10:33:32
The Doomsayers are out in force and getting plenty of exposure in the media especially the BBC!! ::)
I'm starting to get depressed about it to be honest. :-\ I don't think there ever will be a referendum and certainly not a simple In/Out one! >:( UKIP are merely a sideshow who will split the Tory vote which will let Labour (Or Lab/Lib) in and then we'll be back on the tax and spend merry-go-round, which will eventually lead to an IMF/EU bailout.... >:(
I don't go along with Varche's assertion that a condition of an EU bailout will be Britain's entry to the Eurozone, but it will mean ever closer ties to the EU along the lines of the Banking union, financial tax and yes eventually we'll all be paying a direct PAYE EU tax... >:(
The reason the tory vote is split is thefault of the tories. They have become the wishy washy party I cannot vote for again. And I have always voted tory since I was 18, now 47.
I am fed up with politicians telling us how good or bad something will be if we change it. The problem is governments and councils should do what the people want, that is what they are there for. If the majority want out of the EU then it should happen whether good or bad.
I agree Mike....
So basically, we are being told, if we leave, the world will shun us, no-one will trade with us, we will be 'sent to Coventry' we will fall apart. Cobblers....this country is bigger than that, we survived WW2 initially when Europe was part of Germany (and as it again becoming), nobody came to help at the start, but our resolve came through. And it would again :y Its a big wide world out there !!!!!!
Hi Tony, hope everything is good for you. Sorry to be off topic and not meant to be light hearted in the event of the deaths. But that helicopter crash in London made me think of you, I thought " it can't be" :y
Any joy with it ?
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In today's DT is an article by Camoron worshiper Brendan 'Brown-nose' Brogan, who normally gets the nod from Camoron in return. He is suggesting that CaMoron is going to base the speech round patriotism, and to support Britain's EU membership is patriotic. He obviously knows as much about what patriotism as he does about the Magna Carta. >:( >:( >:(
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/benedictbrogan/100198547/no-shopping-list-but-those-who-have-seen-david-camerons-eu-speech-say-it-makes-a-patriots-case-for-britain-in-europe/ (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/benedictbrogan/100198547/no-shopping-list-but-those-who-have-seen-david-camerons-eu-speech-say-it-makes-a-patriots-case-for-britain-in-europe/)
If that is the best he can manage as an argument he has already lost it. The truth is that there is only on escape for the EU clutches and that is by invoking Article 50 in the Lisbon treaty. Everything else is based upon ever closer union, once the EU gain new powers in an area it will never be conceded. This is like a ratchet on a noose around all EU country's necks. Van Rumpy Pumpy has made it clear there is no "a la carte" option, you are either a member of not. So in fact the question and referendum is very easy. "Do you want the UK to remain a member of the EU?" Yes / No. CaMoron will never ever give you this as it stop the whole gravy train he wants to be on, with all those EU summits and banquets. >:( >:( >:(
This is what the parties want in order of current voter popularity:
Liebour want more EU and immigration, no referendum, tax and spend and the Euro if they can get away with it. >:( >:( >:(
Cons want more EU and immigration, tax and spend, no referendum, but pretend they don't. >:( >:( >:(
UKIP want an in / out referendum, to stop most immigration and to get our economy back under control with small government. :y :y :y
LimpDems want more EU, immigration, tax and spend, never any referendum and the Euro. >:( >:( >:(
So, it is very easy to pick who to vote for if you want a strong independent UK with a decent economy. Vote UKIP. :y :y :y
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I'd bet good money on UKIP - assuming they were voted in as a single governing party - not giving us a referendum either. Heck, I'll stick a fiver on it now, for the record.
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" . . . . . . . The problem is governments and councils should do what the people want, that is what they are there for. "
Really, what a silly idea ;D ;D ;D
Those in charge actually following the will of the people, whatever next ? ;) ;)
You'll be expecting politicians to carry out their election promises soon, how ridiculous ::) ::) ::)
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Well Cameron has been saved by the bell........or rather the hostage crisis in Algeria, where it seems a military operation has gone badly wrong for the hostages!! :'( :'( :'( :'(
Cameron will not go anywhere to make his speech tomorrow.
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He does love an excuse to kick the can down the road. ::)
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As said many times, Cameron will never have an in/out referendum.
The plain facts of the matter.....
People of the UK do not wish to be ruled by Europe.
People of the UK wish to trade with all countries, European and the rest of the world.
Simples. :y
I saw one minister (Irish Republic) at the weekend let it slip about 'When Europe becomes one country'. This was him talking about the chance of UK referendum in any form. Dead against it!!!!
Vote UKIP
Wow. Now that is some statement
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Well. We will have to wait. Speech cancelled due to
lack of interest Algerian situation.
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Well. We will have to wait. Speech cancelled due to lack of interest Algerian situation.
.. and he had the Met. office forecast snow in case that excuse didn't wash. ;D
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In today's DT is an article by Camoron worshiper Brendan 'Brown-nose' Brogan, who normally gets the nod from Camoron in return. He is suggesting that CaMoron is going to base the speech round patriotism, and to support Britain's EU membership is patriotic. He obviously knows as much about what patriotism as he does about the Magna Carta. >:( >:( >:(
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/benedictbrogan/100198547/no-shopping-list-but-those-who-have-seen-david-camerons-eu-speech-say-it-makes-a-patriots-case-for-britain-in-europe/ (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/benedictbrogan/100198547/no-shopping-list-but-those-who-have-seen-david-camerons-eu-speech-say-it-makes-a-patriots-case-for-britain-in-europe/)
If that is the best he can manage as an argument he has already lost it. The truth is that there is only on escape for the EU clutches and that is by invoking Article 50 in the Lisbon treaty. Everything else is based upon ever closer union, once the EU gain new powers in an area it will never be conceded. This is like a ratchet on a noose around all EU country's necks. Van Rumpy Pumpy has made it clear there is no "a la carte" option, you are either a member of not. So in fact the question and referendum is very easy. "Do you want the UK to remain a member of the EU?" Yes / No. CaMoron will never ever give you this as it stop the whole gravy train he wants to be on, with all those EU summits and banquets. >:( >:( >:(
This is what the parties want in order of current voter popularity:
Liebour want more EU and immigration, no referendum, tax and spend and the Euro if they can get away with it. >:( >:( >:(
Cons want more EU and immigration, tax and spend, no referendum, but pretend they don't. >:( >:( >:(
UKIP want an in / out referendum, to stop most immigration and to get our economy back under control with small government. :y :y :y
LimpDems want more EU, immigration, tax and spend, never any referendum and the Euro. >:( >:( >:(
So, it is very easy to pick who to vote for if you want a strong independent UK with a decent economy. Vote UKIP. :y :y :y
So a Labour/ Lib Dem coalition after the next election faced with crippling debt due to Osbornes lack of action plus catastrophic downgrades in Britain's credit rating by Fitch lead to a bailout (funded by our EU banking partners and their thriving Euro). BINGO. You can have the money and welcome to the exclusive club -the Euro. Bad luck all those with private pensions as the bank of England went on a really wild QE spree.
Footnote. maybe our only hope is the Canadian hired at GREAT expense to replace Merv at the BoE
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Well. We will have to wait. Speech cancelled due to lack of interest Algerian situation.
A French conspiracy if ever there was I shouldn't wonder... ::)
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I'd bet good money on UKIP - assuming they were voted in as a single governing party - not giving us a referendum either. Heck, I'll stick a fiver on it now, for the record.
No... if UKIP are to be believed then they would pull Britain out of the EU as soon as they were elected. The fact that they were elected in the first place being their mandate! ;)
I suppose you have to give Cameron some credit for at least attempting to grasp the nettle in British politics. Whether it's because he genuinely recognises the peoples frustration with the EU or he is worried about UKIP is a moot point.... :-\
Compare this to the complacency of the likes of Clegg and Milliband who refuse to engage in any meaningful debate on the subject and when pressed all they can come out with is that we may as well hang up the 'Closed' sign if we leave the EU..... ::)
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I watched questiontime last night.
It very much summed up for me the whole situation. What the public need is a load of hard facts . Benefits disadvantages of being in Europe. Federalism versus own government. Costs. Export markets, import markets. Quite how that would be carried out impartially is anyones guess. It certainly couldn't be done by TV.
If it is down to each party publishing their propaganda then the Pro integrated Europe case will win hands down by virtue of there being more money in their pots .
I still think Britain and most British people have a hood on and just cannot or do not want to see -particularly the fundamental aim of Brussels to set budgets for member states.
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Speech now scheduled for Wednesday 23rd Morning.
Most of it has been leaked now I suspect. I bet Cameron is annoyed that his moment has been reduced by the mandatory press leakage routine they all use nowadays for greater impact.
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Speech now scheduled for Wednesday 23rd Morning.
Most of it has been leaked now I suspect. I bet Cameron is annoyed that his moment has been reduced by the mandatory press leakage routine they all use nowadays for greater impact.
I caught a bit of the Daily Politics on TV at lunchtime. UKIP MEP Gerard Batten said the Tories claim to be able to renegotiate our terms of EU membership is a con-trick, because the only way the terms can be changed is by Treaty, unanimously approved by all 27 (28 with Croatia) member states..and it isn't going to happen. We cannot legally change the terms of our membership any other way unless we leave and reapply (no chance). So yes, all this renegotiation is pulling the wool over the eyes of the UK public (all too easily done, IMHO). The Tory MP on the programme (whose name I have forgotten) said Batten was talking rubbish...but offered no justification for that comment, probably because he knows it to be true. >:( >:(
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Well he delivered a speech, all I heard was IF,IF,IF and more IF :( :( :(
Referendum in 5 years time IF >:(
VOTE UKIP
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Well he delivered a speech, all I heard was IF,IF,IF and more IF :( :( :(
Referendum in 5 years time IF >:(
VOTE UKIP
Vote UKIP, Labour get back in, no referendum, country back in the mess it was before the last election.
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Well he delivered a speech, all I heard was IF,IF,IF and more IF :( :( :(
Referendum in 5 years time IF >:(
VOTE UKIP
Vote UKIP, Labour get back in, no referendum, country back in the mess it was before the last election.
I don't know much about politics, so is the mess before the elections worse than the one we're in now ::)
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Well UKIP will certainly get my vote in 2014, then we''ll see about the general election. I've said all along that the Tory vote will be split allowing Labour in, but a Tory/UKIP coalition would be interesting despite that Farage said never.
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Well he delivered a speech, all I heard was IF,IF,IF and more IF :( :( :(
Referendum in 5 years time IF >:(
VOTE UKIP
Vote UKIP, Labour get back in, no referendum, country back in the mess it was before the last election.
I don't know much about politics, so is the mess before the elections worse than the one we're in now ::)
Yes Pete, but who caused it?
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Well he delivered a speech, all I heard was IF,IF,IF and more IF :( :( :(
Referendum in 5 years time IF >:(
VOTE UKIP
Vote UKIP, Labour get back in, no referendum, country back in the mess it was before the last election.
Which was the whole point of his speech.To try to head UKIP off at the pass.He has been advised that he had to make that speech because the traditional Tory vote has all but disappeared,hence UKIP overtaking the Limpdems in the opinion polls.
Assuming Cameron is in No10 after the next election(a very big assumption),my prediction is as follows.He will have some high profile meetings with some high profile EU politicians.He will leave the meetings with some superficial concessions and declare that he has got what he wanted.The EU politicians will agree with this statement.Then,he will put his full weight behind a yes vote as will Labour.The Libdems will pledge mass suicide of their membership if the electorate return a no vote.
It will be a very highly funded campaign,probably with with EU money through the back door.
He argued that the EU needs to return to something very close to the common market which this country voted to join all those years ago.That is never ever going to happen.When it doesnt,he should then campaign for a no vote but he wont.Expect enormous amounts of fudge to be spewing forth from Westminster in the next few years.
This speech may well take the wind out of UKIPs sails,but it is they and only they who have forced him to make this promise,and that alone justifies everything they have said and done up to now.
Its still possible though that he will find some way to wriggle out of his promise as he did last time. ;)
Personally,I think the referendum on the EU should be limited to members of the Omega Owners Forum. ;D
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Well UKIP will certainly get my vote in 2014, then we''ll see about the general election. I've said all along that the Tory vote will be split allowing Labour in, but a Tory/UKIP coalition would be interesting despite that Farage said never.
UKIP will take votes off the Conservative floating voter, not off Lib Dems or Labour, so there will never be a UKIP/Conservative coalition.
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Well he delivered a speech, all I heard was IF,IF,IF and more IF :( :( :(
Referendum in 5 years time IF >:(
VOTE UKIP
Vote UKIP, Labour get back in, no referendum, country back in the mess it was before the last election.
Which was the whole point of his speech.To try to head UKIP off at the pass.
Assuming Cameron is in No10 after the next election(a very big assumption),my prediction is as follows.He will have some high profile meetings with some high profile EU politicians.He will leave the meetings with some superficial concessions and declare that he has got what he wanted.The EU politicians will agree with this statement.Then,he will put his full weight behind a yes vote as will Labour.The Libdems will pledge mass suicide of their membership if the electorate return a no vote.
It will be a very highly funded campaign,probably with with EU money through the back door.
He argued that the EU needs to return to something very close to the common market which this country voted to join all those years ago.That is never ever going to happen.When it doesnt,he should then campaign for a no vote but he wont.Expect enormous amounts of fudge to be spewing forth from Westminster in the next few years.
This speech may well take the wind out of UKIPs sails,but it is they and only they who have forced him to make this promise,and that alone justifies everything they have said and done up to now.
Its still possible though that he will find some way to wriggle out of his promise as he did last time. ;)
Personally,I think the referendum on the EU should be limited to members of the Omega Owners Forum. ;D
Out by Friday then :y ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Well UKIP will certainly get my vote in 2014, then we''ll see about the general election. I've said all along that the Tory vote will be split allowing Labour in, but a Tory/UKIP coalition would be interesting despite that Farage said never.
UKIP will take votes off the Conservative floating voter, not off Lib Dems or Labour, so there will never be a UKIP/Conservative coalition.
I wouldn't be so sure, many voters of all parties want out of the EU
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Well UKIP will certainly get my vote in 2014, then we''ll see about the general election. I've said all along that the Tory vote will be split allowing Labour in, but a Tory/UKIP coalition would be interesting despite that Farage said never.
UKIP will take votes off the Conservative floating voter, not off Lib Dems or Labour, so there will never be a UKIP/Conservative coalition.
UKIP are taking votes from the old working class Labour voters who have seen their jobs being taken by cheap migrant labour.Its doubtful though that it is doing as much harm to Labour as it is to the Tories.Many Tory voters have realised that their party has been hijacked by social democratic spivs in exactly the same way as the old Labour party was hijacked by the same type of people.
UKIP offers them a tailor made alternative,as long as they are able to jump the hurdle of a lifetime of brand loyalty.
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Well he delivered a speech, all I heard was IF,IF,IF and more IF :( :( :(
Referendum in 5 years time IF >:(
VOTE UKIP
Vote UKIP, Labour get back in, no referendum, country back in the mess it was before the last election.
I don't know much about politics, so is the mess before the elections worse than the one we're in now ::)
Yes Pete, but who caused it?
Politicians as far as I can tell. They all speak with forked tongues >:(
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As you all like knocking the present government so much (and I'm suprised they've not been blamed for the weather yet) .....
perhaps you'll find fault with this as well ?? :) :) :)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21158815
The UK unemployment total has fallen to its lowest level for 18 months while the number of people in work has reached another record high......... The ONS said the number of people in work had increased to 29.7 million
:)
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As you all like knocking the present government so much (and I'm suprised they've not been blamed for the weather yet) .....
perhaps you'll find fault with this as well ?? :) :) :)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21158815
The UK unemployment total has fallen to its lowest level for 18 months while the number of people in work has reached another record high......... The ONS said the number of people in work had increased to 29.7 million
:)
But how, what jobs, all we hear about is the number of businesses closing or lack of production output and redundancies. Even the city are set to lose thousands of posts. I'm all for good news but I just don't believe statistics not backed by evidence.
The likelihood is that by the summer of unemployment will be rising rising tho' not dramatically......... from the same article
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Nigel Farages initial response to Camerons speech.
http://www.ukip.org/content/latest-news/2924-the-genie-is-now-out-of-the-bottle-finally
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As you all like knocking the present government so much (and I'm suprised they've not been blamed for the weather yet) .....
perhaps you'll find fault with this as well ?? :) :) :)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21158815
The UK unemployment total has fallen to its lowest level for 18 months while the number of people in work has reached another record high......... The ONS said the number of people in work had increased to 29.7 million
:)
That is easy to fault.! A combination of the governments policies on long term unemployed working (they may not have jobs but are off the books- I have personal knowledge of one such person who is now supported by their parents).. Plenty of low paid jobs around. Plenty of folk taking part time jobs as no full time jobs. All in all a reduction, so accurate. I strongly suspect they are not quality jobs that will boost income tax. The government will blame the weather when Britain goes back into recession later this year, due to poor spending and thus low tax receipts.
Albitz. Thanks for the link to UKIP's response.
Cameron is just throwing the dice. It is all a clever empty promise. Vote us back in and we will try and negotiate a better deal. They will not get voted back in. If they did they will be unable to negotiate diddly squat (Nada) from the EU. I bet the mandarins in Brussels or Strasburg are having a god laugh about that aspect.
Looking at the opinion polls there is a lot of work to be done in educating the electorate and persuading those "don't knows-20%" and "can't be bothered-5%". How scary would a result of 39% for, 38.9% against, 12.1% coudn't be bothered to vote on the most important issue for a generation.
Has Labour said where it stands?
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Floodgates open to 29million more immigrants with access to the benefit system , i wonder why so many come here ::) >:( >:( >:( >:(
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Ed Millibland suggested during PMs questions that Labours position had not changed. When asked what that position was, he could recall only that it hadn't changed ;D
The only sensible 'question' came from Minghes Campbell, who asked if Michael Hesletine would be conducting a formal enquiry into the actual pros and cons of withdrawal from the EU.
Unfortunatly Callmedave dismissed it with a chuckle >:( Wasted opportunity to demonstrate a structured, considered and educated approach to a sensible debate prior to an in/out referendum IMHO :'(
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Millipede stated "no,we do not want an in/out referendum". Minger Cambell was being mischievous.Heseltine is one of the Tories who has always adored everything to do with the EU.He sternly warned the country that we needed to join the euro or face being isolated,ridiculed,having British business being very badly damaged and rendered uncpompetitive etc. etc.
He is now saying all the same things about the current situation.
He was a treachorous egomaniac who finished Thatchers career,because she wouldnt allow Brussells to take yet more sovereignty and power from the U.K. ;)
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Mischievous or not, I thought it was a sensible question :-\
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Not really.Heseltine would have a list of pros ready before his enquiry began,and there wouldnt be a list of cons.He has always refused to see any significant cons.Tbh,he may by now realise how wrong he has been,but he couldnt publicly admit it,as it would be the pin which bursts his enormous ego. :)
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::) I meant the suggestion of an enquiry itself :y
Obviously, to be of any validity, it would need to be free of political horsepoo, and thus is unlikely to ever happen :'(
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Ah right,I know what you mean now. :y
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As a member of the Conservative Party I have received an e-mail from "David" with an attached transcript of his speech in full.
For those interested to read it in full:
http://www.conservatives.com/News/Speeches/2012/12/Prime_Ministers_Speech_on_Europe.aspx
:y :y
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And having read that and listened to him, what is your view on it all Lizzie?
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And having read that and listened to him, what is your view on it all Lizzie?
I will first repeat what I stated on another thread:
"I listened to part of Cameron's speech before I had to go for a meeting this morning.
But I did catch his point that it is no good voting on either getting out, or staying in ,the EU before the flux that is the Union settles down and Britain knows fully what is at stake, after re-negotiations take place that could dramatically the UK's position.
I am certainly fed up with the EU's actions, or not, but I must admit to seeing Cameron's point of view. It is scary to consider it, but maybe at last he is becoming focused!
PS I am not going to vote yet as far more data and time has got to be revealed and pass before a considered opinion can be finally decided upon.
The big question is anyway, will the EU survive? "
Further to that, after reading the full speech I am left unconvinced as, as others have said, it leaves many "if's" to be answered before any meaningful re-negotiation of Britain's membership followed by a new EU package that we the British public can vote on. Cameron is right on all the historic rhetoric, but, apart from considering it is right to steer clear of war between our countries, that is the past. We are talking here of the future, which is all the EU members, including Britain, is interested in.
Currently it is true that to vote right now on the EU does not make sense, as we just do not know what EU we would actually be voting on. A EU of all the countries that are members now?; members who use the Euro?; a more federal Europe, or one that is going to 'allow' for national interests? The decision is vital to Britain's future, and at the moment the facts on what we are voting on are far too fluid. Cameron is right; we need the EU to settle down in whatever form it is going to take from now to 2017 before making that crucial vote. Nothing will happen before then, and that relies on one of the major "if's"; that the Conservatives will form the next government in 2015.
To conclude we all must wait until the EU gets fully past it's crisis; establishes what countries will remain members; which members will continue to use the Euro; what administrative processes the EU will use, and what level of individual nationalism will be 'allowed' by the EU. Then we, the British public can decide what "benefits" there are in being a member, and how it affects our national interests, fully considering our sovereignty. We vote accordingly on that basis. If the EU breaks up entirely, then that will resolve the issue completely.
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Good speech, but words are cheap.
After Dithering Dave's last cast iron guarantee, personally to me it is just another sound bite and I don't believe a word of it as the man is ruled by focus groups, not principal or vision. This is all about trying stop the defection of Cons to UKIP and also the rumoured challenge to his leadership, which only takes 43 letters from vulnerable MPs from split UKIP/Con votes to the chairman of the 1922 committee. :o :o :o
Same old rubbish about fairness and climate change etc, etc which is strangling businesses, investment and quality jobs. So no change before 2017, just stagflation and falling real incomes. >:( >:( >:(
Where they have not got to grips with the public finances, when we lose our AAA rating in the next few months and when at some point bond interest rates start to go up, then they along with the rest of the UK's population will be caught in the vortex of this economic black hole, with no escape. >:( >:( >:(
The EU will then come to the rescue on their terms and their price. For LibLabCons engineering this will be job done, where we will be ruled by Bank Clark President Van Rumpuy and Comrade Barosso. >:( >:( >:(
For those that want an alternative view to the Cons and UKIPS on the EU, try the Bruges Group, who are the mainly Conservatives pushing their views on the EU, where they are against ever closer union.
http://www.brugesgroup.com/ (http://www.brugesgroup.com/)
Lizzie events are going to overtake Dithering Dave as Comrade Barosso aims to have a new treaty to form the USE by the start of 2014 and it to be passed by all members by 2015. So lets wait to see the new treaty and then have our In / Out referendum before the next election. :) :) :)
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Good speech, but words are cheap.
After Dithering Dave's last cast iron guarantee, personally to me it is just another sound bite and I don't believe a word of it as the man is ruled by focus groups, not principal or vision. This is all about trying stop the defection of Cons to UKIP and also the rumoured challenge to his leadership, which only takes 43 letters from vulnerable MPs from split UKIP/Con votes to the chairman of the 1922 committee. :o :o :o
Same old rubbish about fairness and climate change etc, etc which is strangling businesses, investment and quality jobs. So no change before 2017, just stagflation and falling real incomes. >:( >:( >:(
Where they have not got to grips with the public finances, when we lose our AAA rating in the next few months and when at some point bond interest rates start to go up, then they along with the rest of the UK's population will be caught in the vortex of this economic black hole, with no escape. >:( >:( >:(
The EU will then come to the rescue on their terms and their price. For LibLabCons engineering this will be job done, where we will be ruled by Bank Clark President Van Rumpuy and Comrade Barosso. >:( >:( >:(
For those that want an alternative view to the Cons and UKIPS on the EU, try the Bruges Group, who are the mainly Conservatives pushing their views on the EU, where they are against ever closer union.
http://www.brugesgroup.com/ (http://www.brugesgroup.com/)
Lizzie events are going to overtake Dithering Dave as Comrade Barosso aims to have a new treaty to form the USE by the start of 2014 and it to be passed by all members by 2015. So lets wait to see the new treaty and then have our In / Out referendum before the next election. :) :) :
We both know that that will not happen. The Lib Dems will block such a move and so will Labour.
The best we can hope for in the context of current facts is that referendum in 2017. As for a bombastic EU politician aiming to launch a new treaty in 2015 is a flight of fancy, as the EU's priority is to stabilise all the countries "on the brink" and the Euro itself. There are other voices around European capitals who also agree on the 'unhappiness' felt by Britain. They are not going to agree easily to anything at the moment. The German's as well may be the key to pulling the plug and going all out to secure their national interests, so avoiding any more bailouts using their cash! The Mark could well return within the next two years, with them ditching the weak in Europe. ;)
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Good speech, but words are cheap.
After Dithering Dave's last cast iron guarantee, personally to me it is just another sound bite and I don't believe a word of it as the man is ruled by focus groups, not principal or vision. This is all about trying stop the defection of Cons to UKIP and also the rumoured challenge to his leadership, which only takes 43 letters from vulnerable MPs from split UKIP/Con votes to the chairman of the 1922 committee. :o :o :o
Same old rubbish about fairness and climate change etc, etc which is strangling businesses, investment and quality jobs. So no change before 2017, just stagflation and falling real incomes. >:( >:( >:(
Where they have not got to grips with the public finances, when we lose our AAA rating in the next few months and when at some point bond interest rates start to go up, then they along with the rest of the UK's population will be caught in the vortex of this economic black hole, with no escape. >:( >:( >:(
The EU will then come to the rescue on their terms and their price. For LibLabCons engineering this will be job done, where we will be ruled by Bank Clark President Van Rumpuy and Comrade Barosso. >:( >:( >:(
For those that want an alternative view to the Cons and UKIPS on the EU, try the Bruges Group, who are the mainly Conservatives pushing their views on the EU, where they are against ever closer union.
The EU have a very good track record of pushing thrugh unpopular , unwanted treaties. I see no reason at all for them not continuing to do so. They may even accelerate their undemocratic plans in the light of Britain's upstart.
http://www.brugesgroup.com/ (http://www.brugesgroup.com/)
Lizzie events are going to overtake Dithering Dave as Comrade Barosso aims to have a new treaty to form the USE by the start of 2014 and it to be passed by all members by 2015. So lets wait to see the new treaty and then have our In / Out referendum before the next election. :) :) :)
And therein lies the rub*. We will be so embedded in the new EU before dithering Dave gets possibly re elected that my prediction of Britain joining the Euro and being a subservant member state will be another step forward. There will be ZERO chance of a referendum before the next election.
*Shakespeare
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The EU is only going one way. The current solutions to the economic crisis in the European Parliament and Commission will involve even more integration. Banking and Fiscal Union will be complete by 2017. Article 16 of the Fiscal Compact incorporates Fiscal Union into EU law by 2017 at the latest.
We have no choice. We are bound by EU laws, rules, regulations and Directives while we remain inside. There is nothing to stop a future government taking Britain into Fiscal Union.
http://www.thecommentator.com/article/2553/get_britain_out_s_response_to_david_cameron (http://www.thecommentator.com/article/2553/get_britain_out_s_response_to_david_cameron)
So, by the time Cameron decides he might give us a treaty (if he's in power, that is), it will effectively be TOO LATE. >:( >:(
Who'd have thought it, eh? ::)
These Europhiles have given a lot of consideration as to how they can fool the populous (starting with the Conservative party who, judging by today's comments, are the most easily fooled). ::) ::)
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We have no choice. We are bound by EU laws, rules, regulations and Directives while we remain inside. There is nothing to stop a future government taking Britain into Fiscal Union.
I thought that if there were proposals to cede further powers to Brussels ie Fiscal Union then that had to be put to the British people in a referendum? and that is already on the statute books? ??? :-\
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Excellent post by John Redwood MP on his blog, spelling out the economic truth. Comments are good too, especially the revelation that 80% of our business is internal and 80% of that is in the hands of small and medium businesses. Makes you wonder why the Big Companies are so keen on the EU. ;) ::) ::)
http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2013/01/24/the-government-makes-the-balance-of-payments-worse/#comments (http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2013/01/24/the-government-makes-the-balance-of-payments-worse/#comments)
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Being in the EU, and the Euro for that matter, probably makes things easier for big firms. They pay all their european staff in one currency, operate under one legal umbrella that applies across the board and also get to cherry pick countries to operate in based on the available subsidies in any one place whilst maintaining free and easy access to a common market place.
Leaving Euroland would actually empower us as we would then be able to negotiate operating conditions for such firms to suit ourselves without our interests being compromised by the demands of other member states thus allowing us to offer much more favourable terms, especially if the Euro collapses.
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Most of Europe and the EU have been hostile to his speech, apart from Germany. With Merkel looking for some sort of accommodation and this in the Bild newspaper. ???
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/9823305/David-Cameron-Europe-speech-Germanys-Bild-pays-tribute-to-crazy-Brits.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/9823305/David-Cameron-Europe-speech-Germanys-Bild-pays-tribute-to-crazy-Brits.html)
I think German capitalist instincts are much closer to our own than many other European countries, I get the impression that Germany does not want to be left on their own with the socialist French. Germany is now our strongest trading partner in Europe, where we are back to where we were before WWI. France rather welcomed WWI and our support treaty as that broke the strong trading and Royal family UK-German relationship that has never been the same since. France will hate it as all their European Hegemony plans will come to zero again, just like they have in the rest of their less than impressive history. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Most of Europe and the EU have been hostile to his speech, apart from Germany. With Merkel looking for some sort of accommodation and this in the Bild newspaper. ???
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/9823305/David-Cameron-Europe-speech-Germanys-Bild-pays-tribute-to-crazy-Brits.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/9823305/David-Cameron-Europe-speech-Germanys-Bild-pays-tribute-to-crazy-Brits.html)
I think German capitalist instincts are much closer to our own than many other European countries, I get the impression that Germany does not want to be left on their own with the socialist French. Germany is now our strongest trading partner in Europe, where we are back to where we were before WWI. France rather welcomed WWI and our support treaty as that broke the strong trading and Royal family UK-German relationship that has never been the same since. France will hate it as all their European Hegemony plans will come to zero again, just like they have in the rest of their less than impressive history. ;D ;D ;D ;D
All agreed, apart from there being comment that behind the public face of some European countries, there is an understanding and some sympathy with Britain's stance.
Apart from that, yes the Germans will remember that it has been Britain that, unlike the rest of Europe and especially the French, have stood up and been counted in history as we are a strong nation, with the results we all know and love. We have always been culturally closer to the Prussians / Germans, and we have the same national strengths. The Prussians saved Wellington and his Army at Waterloo against the French, and we greatly assisted the Germans in liberating themselves from the Nazi menace.
We can work with the Germans, and when the EU falls apart perhaps we can become even closer! :y :y :y
That will stir it! ;D ;D ;D ;)
PS I do believe in what I am stating! :)
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Most of Europe and the EU have been hostile to his speech, apart from Germany. With Merkel looking for some sort of accommodation and this in the Bild newspaper. ???
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/9823305/David-Cameron-Europe-speech-Germanys-Bild-pays-tribute-to-crazy-Brits.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/9823305/David-Cameron-Europe-speech-Germanys-Bild-pays-tribute-to-crazy-Brits.html)
I think German capitalist instincts are much closer to our own than many other European countries, I get the impression that Germany does not want to be left on their own with the socialist French. Germany is now our strongest trading partner in Europe, where we are back to where we were before WWI. France rather welcomed WWI and our support treaty as that broke the strong trading and Royal family UK-German relationship that has never been the same since. France will hate it as all their European Hegemony plans will come to zero again, just like they have in the rest of their less than impressive history. ;D ;D ;D ;D
All agreed, apart from there being comment that behind the public face of some European countries, there is an understanding and some sympathy with Britain's stance.
Apart from that, yes the Germans will remember that it has been Britain that, unlike the rest of Europe and especially the French, have stood up and been counted in history as we are a strong nation, with the results we all know and love. We have always been culturally closer to the Prussians / Germans, and we have the same national strengths. The Prussians saved Wellington and his Army at Waterloo against the French, and we greatly assisted the Germans in liberating themselves from the Nazi menace.
We can work with the Germans, and when the EU falls apart perhaps we can become even closer! :y :y :y
That will stir it! ;D ;D ;D ;)
PS I do believe in what I am stating! :)
You are having a larf. Should be in the jokes section. True the Germans will be quite happy to sell us their VW, BMW, Mercs. When the chips are down they will look after themselves. Remember they have pots of gold and promisory notes. Britain is bankrupt. Its only saving grace is that it isn't in the euro(yet) and thus can mortgage your pensions for the future of sterling with yet more QE*.
* Where is that new Canadian in charge of the BoE. Anyone seen or heard anything from him yet? Here is hoping he isn't too busy filling in his expenses and removals claims to be keeping an eye on what is going on. He is my great white hope...........
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Most of Europe and the EU have been hostile to his speech, apart from Germany. With Merkel looking for some sort of accommodation and this in the Bild newspaper. ???
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/9823305/David-Cameron-Europe-speech-Germanys-Bild-pays-tribute-to-crazy-Brits.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/9823305/David-Cameron-Europe-speech-Germanys-Bild-pays-tribute-to-crazy-Brits.html)
I think German capitalist instincts are much closer to our own than many other European countries, I get the impression that Germany does not want to be left on their own with the socialist French. Germany is now our strongest trading partner in Europe, where we are back to where we were before WWI. France rather welcomed WWI and our support treaty as that broke the strong trading and Royal family UK-German relationship that has never been the same since. France will hate it as all their European Hegemony plans will come to zero again, just like they have in the rest of their less than impressive history. ;D ;D ;D ;D
All agreed, apart from there being comment that behind the public face of some European countries, there is an understanding and some sympathy with Britain's stance.
Apart from that, yes the Germans will remember that it has been Britain that, unlike the rest of Europe and especially the French, have stood up and been counted in history as we are a strong nation, with the results we all know and love. We have always been culturally closer to the Prussians / Germans, and we have the same national strengths. The Prussians saved Wellington and his Army at Waterloo against the French, and we greatly assisted the Germans in liberating themselves from the Nazi menace.
We can work with the Germans, and when the EU falls apart perhaps we can become even closer! :y :y :y
That will stir it! ;D ;D ;D ;)
PS I do believe in what I am stating! :)
You are having a larf. Should be in the jokes section. True the Germans will be quite happy to sell us their VW, BMW, Mercs. When the chips are down they will look after themselves[/b]. Remember they have pots of gold and promisory notes. Britain is bankrupt. Its only saving grace is that it isn't in the euro(yet) and thus can mortgage your pensions for the future of sterling with yet more QE*.
* Where is that new Canadian in charge of the BoE. Anyone seen or heard anything from him yet? Here is hoping he isn't too busy filling in his expenses and removals claims to be keeping an eye on what is going on. He is my great white hope...........
Yes the Germans do look after themselves, as Britain once did and must do again. ;)
Work with the Germans and we can all move on to better days :y :y
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I see Poland has jumped in and announced they would like nothing more than to take the U.K.s place at the top table of the E.U.
Someone might want to mention to them that taking our place will involve putting Billions in rather than taking billions out. ::) ;D
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Well said Albs :y
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Perhaps then this is the answer to the European question:
Great Britain and Germany working together to form a new alliance to create a new economic and industrial future in each country, with mutual respect for each others strength. Britain would retain the Pound Sterling, whilst Germany would re-introduce the Mark. Both would break the ties that hold them currently responsible to financially hold Europe together, and introduce national restrictions on immigration.
(http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk247/lizziefreeman/GreatBritain.jpg) (http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk247/lizziefreeman/GermanFlag.jpg)
Thoughts?
Could this work? Would it resolve once and for all the unworkable difficulties the EU is currently going through? Would it give Great Britain a new beginning without the shackles of the EU?
Germany and Great Britain are actually natural allies, and have very similar strengths, interests, and objectives (apart from the EU situation). ;)
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There have been far worse alliances made :-\
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The Chris Booker column in the DT is always worth reading and this week is no exception. He analysis Camorons speech for what it is and explains why it is nothing more than a UKIP spoiler.
He explains why Norway as an European Free Trade Area Member (EFTA) member and not a member of the EU has MORE not less influence on world standards which are adopted by the EU as a full committee member in these organisations, where we are just represented by the EU so have NO direct say.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/9828433/Forget-Brussels-now-we-are-ruled-by-the-giants-of-Geneva.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/9828433/Forget-Brussels-now-we-are-ruled-by-the-giants-of-Geneva.html)
When for me Camoron's spoiler on the EU has failed. Vote UKIP. :y
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That is a very interesting article.
Vote UKIP. :y
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IN / OUT now
VOTE UKIP