Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: m.ian on 14 June 2014, 10:01:34
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will upgrading my front discs to drilled and grooved will improve the overall braking?
Asking as discs need changing but not sure if increased cost for drilled will be worth the difference.
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On a road car?
No.
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What are you trying to improve? Braking power or resistance to fade?
Nothing "serviceable" will improve braking power, and whilst you can improve resistance to fade, its usually a compromise (eg, very low braking performance when cold)
FYI, cheap drilled/groved discs are usually prone to cracking, which starts from the holes/groves and works out.
The standard setup with GM parts is pretty capable*, and if you're hitting the limits of them, you need more serious brake work, beyond service items.
* Specifically ignoring the individual view of those who expect a fart to result in a full blown 4 wheel lock up, as feel/progressiveness is a personal viewpoint that doesn't affect braking performance or durability.
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* Specifically ignoring the individual view of those who expect a fart to result in a full blown 4 wheel lock up, as feel/progressiveness is a personal viewpoint that doesn't affect braking performance or durability.
Well said.
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I have ebc "dimpled" and grooved discs taken from another car.
There is no difference in performance whatsoever. With the added interference of a slight buzzing sensation from the brake pedal, as the grooves pass over the brake pads. This decreases with wear.
As said for better brakes, it will mean bigger discs and bigger callipers. Although in the grand scheme of things, oe brake pads will give slightly better performance, as the tc ones are a much more cost effective option.
Re the very low level of servo assistance on the omega, that causes an amount of complaints on here and the desire for improvement in the first place... that will involve either modification or replacement of the brake servo. Something that vx attempted to address before omega production stopped, as later omega have an alteration that increases assistance under emergency braking. Going by some TIS entry's.
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oe brake pads will give slightly better performance, as the tc ones are a much more cost effective option.
Currently running one car with TC, other with OE, the only difference I would say (dust aside!) is the OE ones have a better initial bite from cold, whereas the TC ones seem a little dull on first application in a journey :-\
Something that vx attempted to address before omega production stopped, as later omega have an alteration that increases assistance under emergency braking. Going by some TIS entry's.
It looks like a standard "emergency assist" alteration which were being added to all cars (including Fords, with their already hair trigger brakes!) at the time (and since), and unrelated to servo assistance is normal driving. As you say, its a system designed to provide extra servo assistance on the initial press of the brake when doing emergency stops, and should be unnoticeable under other scenarios :)
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I find the standard brakes are fine, yes the pedal is soft compared to other cars (unless you have driven a merc with servotronic brakes), but they work well for such a heavy car. I would suggest the extra money is better spent on tyres.
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I would suggest the extra money is better spent on tyres.
A valid point. Braking efficiency also relies on the capabilities of the tyres, shocks (esp front) and everything else needed to generate maximum friction between the chassis and the ground, in addition to the capabilities of the braking components.
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oe brake pads will give slightly better performance, as the tc ones are a much more cost effective option.
Currently running one car with TC, other with OE, the only difference I would say (dust aside!) is the OE ones have a better initial bite from cold, whereas the TC ones seem a little dull on first application in a journey :-\
Something that vx attempted to address before omega production stopped, as later omega have an alteration that increases assistance under emergency braking. Going by some TIS entry's.
It looks like a standard "emergencyassist" alteration which were being added to all cars (including Fords, with their already hair trigger brakes!) at the time (and since), and unrelated to servo assistance is normal driving. As you say, its a system designed to provide extra servo assistance on the initial press of the brake when doing emergency stops, and should be unnoticeable under other scenarios :)
How does this "emergency assist work" ?
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Personally I find oe pads to be a few % better on bite and feel a cross the range of normal every day use. Which is why I want them fitted. If driving at 10 tenths all the time, its much less noticeable.
Understandably, some may balk at the price though.
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Also, Fords are only "massively over assisted" in the words of the master being banded about here, if your used to an omega, which is massively under assisted.
It can appear ridiculous by comparison. But it's not. Just two opposite ends of a given scale. If your prepared to describe fords assistance as hair trigger, you then have to equally accept that omega brakes as, at the very least, in need of updating. Especially given the family tree they come from.
What stands out most more is, that its amazing what us humans can get used to. Relatively speaking.
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Also, Fords are only "massively over assisted" in the words of the master being banded about here, if your used to an omega, which is massively under assisted.
It can appear ridiculous by comparison. But it's not. Just two opposite ends of a given scale. If your prepared to describe fords assistance as hair trigger, you then have to equally accept that omega brakes as, at the very least, in need of updating. Especially given the family tree they come from.
I stand by my comments that Ford have too much of a hair trigger, resulting in a loss of feel. Even when used to a car, its still difficult to find the braking limit of the car without being in full ABS mode. Contrast that with the Omega's feedback, where anyone should be able to be able to be just touching the point of one wheel just activating ABS, but a bit more effort required on the pedal.
I guess for many, there will be a happy compromise somewhere in between. Its an area I don't want to compromise in, thus I'm happy to put a shade more effort into the pedal in order to get the control I desire.
What stands out most more is, that its amazing what us humans can get used to. Relatively speaking.
Left foot braking highlights that :)
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Also, Fords are only "massively over assisted" in the words of the master being banded about here, if your used to an omega, which is massively under assisted.
It can appear ridiculous by comparison. But it's not. Just two opposite ends of a given scale. If your prepared to describe fords assistance as hair trigger, you then have to equally accept that omega brakes as, at the very least, in need of updating. Especially given the family tree they come from.
I stand by my comments that Ford have too much of a hair trigger, resulting in a loss of feel. Even when used to a car, its still difficult to find the braking limit of the car without being in full ABS mode. Contrast that with the Omega's feedback, where anyone should be able to be able to be just touching the point of one wheel just activating ABS, but a bit more effort required on the pedal.
I guess for many, there will be a happy compromise somewhere in between. Its an area I don't want to compromise in, thus I'm happy to put a shade more effort into the pedal in order to get the control I desire.
I dont agree. Who are we to say one is better than the other? Just because "we" are used to one or the other.
But, add in a small diameter disc for the size and power of a 3.2. A relatively small single piston calliper, AND an almost complete absence of servo assistance, the end result leaves plenty of room for improvement.
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The design is over 20yrs old, of course there is room for improvement, particularly for durability for a reasonably rapid, heavy motor, no matter how good it was in the early 1990s. The fact that for the vast, vast majority of owners, its still more than capable enough despite its age shows it was quite good in its day. But everything moves on :)
However, (perceived)(lack of) servo assistance I do not see as a deficiency. Quite the opposite.
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Servo assistance and resistance to fade being two very different things :y
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Servo assistance and resistance to fade being two very different things :y
I am confused. Where is it implied they are one and the same?
The design is over 20yrs old, of course there is room for improvement, particularly for durability for a reasonably rapid, heavy motor, no matter how good it was in the early 1990s. The fact that for the vast, vast majority of owners, its still more than capable enough despite its age shows it was quite good in its day. But everything moves on :)
However, (perceived)(lack of) servo assistance I do not see as a deficiency. Quite the opposite.
I see that as a complete contradiction. But at least, initially, your seeing sense. ;)
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It wasn't :y
Was highlighting the chasm between the perceived issue with Omega brakes and the actual problem :y
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If you want to feel properly what the brakes are doing, then as little servo assistance as possible is in order. Removing it all together probably isn't an option on a heavy car like an Omega, but it is on lighter cars.
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It wasn't :y
Was highlighting the chasm between the perceived issue with Omega brakes and the actual problem :y
Problems;
Lack of bite
Lack of heat absorption.
Lack of power.
They feal dead
They over heat
They take a great deal of effort to activate.
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It wasn't :y
Was highlighting the chasm between the perceived issue with Omega brakes and the actual problem :y
Problems;
Lack of bite
Lack of heat absorption.
Lack of power.
They feal dead
They over heat
They take a great deal of effort to activate.
Perhaps you should fit Omega brakes rather than the Minor ones some idiot has fitted to your car?
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It wasn't :y
Was highlighting the chasm between the perceived issue with Omega brakes and the actual problem :y
Problems;
Lack of bite
Lack of heat absorption.
Lack of power.
They feal dead
They over heat
They take a great deal of effort to activate.
Perhaps you should fit Omega brakes rather than the Minor ones some idiot has fitted to your car?
That'll be the idiots at Vauxhall/Opel then.
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The Omega brakes are excellent, as what they are designed to do. A big heavy motorway cruiser, blasting down the lanes ect, do job well.
In my opinion, if the Omega brakes are not good enough you are either
1) Not reading road ahead well
2) Seriously over the speed limit
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The Omega brakes are excellent, as what they are designed to do. A big heavy motorway cruiser, blasting down the lanes ect, do job well.
In my opinion, if the Omega brakes are not good enough you are either
1) Not reading road ahead well
2) Seriously over the speed limit
Yes miss daisy who wants a Monaro ::)
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It wasn't :y
Was highlighting the chasm between the perceived issue with Omega brakes and the actual problem :y
Problems;
Lack of bite
Lack of heat absorption.
Lack of power.
They feal dead
They over heat
They take a great deal of effort to activate.
This problem, I've already said, is a deficiency for a very slight minority. I would suggest that for these drivers, any standard road car would have inadequate brakes in this respect.
The other 2 problems I suspect are actually just one, you feel the car lacks servo assistance, yet contradicts what you are trying to achieve in the highlighted ones. In the same way that an over assisted PAS removes feedback, the more assistance you get with the brakes, the less feedback you get. ???
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Rubbish :)
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oe brake pads will give slightly better performance, as the tc ones are a much more cost effective option.
Currently running one car with TC, other with OE, the only difference I would say (dust aside!) is the OE ones have a better initial bite from cold, whereas the TC ones seem a little dull on first application in a journey :-\
Something that vx attempted to address before omega production stopped, as later omega have an alteration that increases assistance under emergency braking. Going by some TIS entry's.
It looks like a standard "emergencyassist" alteration which were being added to all cars (including Fords, with their already hair trigger brakes!) at the time (and since), and unrelated to servo assistance is normal driving. As you say, its a system designed to provide extra servo assistance on the initial press of the brake when doing emergency stops, and should be unnoticeable under other scenarios :)
How does this "emergency assist work" ?
Quite simply....or on a merc i had a few years ago....the ecu decides your doing an emergency stop (and stopping in a controlled way) it locks up the wheels, the brake pedal sinks to floor, and you go for a uncontrollable slide on a wet road.....and you end up doing nearly £10k worth of damage to it....i never want it again if i can help it >:(
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If you want to feel properly what the brakes are doing, then as little servo assistance as possible is in order. Removing it all together probably isn't an option on a heavy car like an Omega, but it is on lighter cars.
I've said the same many times. :y
I think the Omega brakes are perfectly balanced with respect to feel and assistance, personally. My Westfield is probably not far off the same feel, a bit more feedback, perhaps, and that's a disks all round and no servo setup.
Crank up the servo assistance to F**D levels and you've got absolutely no feel left.
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Aaaah yes the party line again. That's simply not the case.
But, your loss. ;)
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When was the last time you drove a car with no servo? Brake servos are there to assist the process, not do the whole job.
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When was the last time you drove a car with no servo? ....
Must be 30 yrs ago ...... my brother's girlfriend's VW Something with a boot. It needed quite a shove on the pedal to make it stop. :o
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When was the last time you drove a car with no servo? ....
Must be 30 yrs ago ...... my brother's girlfriend's VW Something with a boot. It needed quite a shove on the pedal to make it stop. :o
For old times sake, Andy, try turning the engine off on your merc, before you have stopped, like 30 secs before....when the pressure has died, you will have no servo brakes or steering :y ;D
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Only car with no servo was an F reg Polo, and last car without abs was an M reg 106 iirc...
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When was the last time you drove a car with no servo? ....
Must be 30 yrs ago ...... my brother's girlfriend's VW Something with a boot. It needed quite a shove on the pedal to make it stop. :o
For old times sake, Andy, try turning the engine off on your merc, before you have stopped, like 30 secs before....when the pressure has died, you will have no servo brakes or steering :y ;D
Can I pass on that please ;D ;D ;D ;D
It was bad enough being on the end of a tow rope with the Omega when I ripped the sump plug off it ......... as you say, no steering assistance & a brake pedal that does virtually bugger all :o
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First time the clutch went on the Omega, the AA bloke said to leave the engine running to provide steering/braking assistance. Suffice to say the Omega made a pretty effective anchor at the first roundabout ;D
But a very big difference between being tethered to a Transhit and pressing on ::)
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When was the last time you drove a car with no servo? Brake servos are there to assist the process, not do the whole job.
Most mornings when the bloody car stalls ;D
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When was the last time you drove a car with no servo? ....
Must be 30 yrs ago ...... my brother's girlfriend's VW Something with a boot. It needed quite a shove on the pedal to make it stop. :o
..and a roll of a dice, knowing VW brakes of that era. :o
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When was the last time you drove a car with no servo? ....
Must be 30 yrs ago ...... my brother's girlfriend's VW Something with a boot. It needed quite a shove on the pedal to make it stop. :o
13x4j wheels can only contain so much caliper ;D
..and a roll of a dice, knowing VW brakes of that era. :o
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13x4j wheels can only contain so much caliper ;D
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Would they have even had discs then? ;D
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The fronts definitely were, all 8" of them ;D
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wow didn't realise I was opening such a "hot" topic, but bottom line standard vented discs will do the job :)
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wow didn't realise I was opening such a "hot" topic, but bottom line standard vented discs will do the job :)
A bit of light background reading ;D ::)
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wow didn't realise I was opening such a "hot" topic, but bottom line standard vented discs will do the job :)
I think its the best, known good option for the vast majority :y. IIRC, you tow, but unless on a look downhill slope needing to ride the brakes all the way down, I can't see that causing an issue either :y
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thanks for the input and yes I do tow, that's why I want to get these sorted before our trip to Goodwood next weekend :)
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wow didn't realise I was opening such a "hot" topic, but bottom line standard vented discs will do the job :)
Geenuine discs/pads are around 95 quid per axle set from Vx ... from memory :-[
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Towing doesn't put much strain on the brakes over and above solo driving, IMHO. Yes, you have more weight, but speeds are lower and you're normally driving a bit less "spiritedly". If the trailer has significant weight, it has its' own brakes to take most of the extra load anyway.
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All discs and pads replaced and system bleed :)
What difference :D :D :D :D