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Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: steve6367 on 31 March 2015, 10:42:15

Title: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: steve6367 on 31 March 2015, 10:42:15
I've read lots about this on the V6 engines and the solution of moving the Lambda sensor.

Does this apply to the 2.2? Or is my CAT stuffed?

It had HG failure about 9 months ago, so could be a delayed reaction to that?

Steve
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: chrisgixer on 31 March 2015, 12:22:08
What's the code? If 0420 (which I think is bank 1, as yours obviously won't have the bank 2 code) is present, then yes moving the sensor location will fix it.

Correction, code as title ::) ;D

:y
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: Blueron on 31 March 2015, 17:07:20
I used to get this code every other week on my 2.2. and the emissions light would come on.Bought new cat,changed sensors but to no avail..I now only run the car on 97 or 99 premium fuel and the problem has gone away. Costs abit more but at least I'm not resetting the light every 2 weeks. Hope you sort it.
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: TheBoy on 31 March 2015, 18:11:19
Pattern cats are universally shite, without exception.

*IF* you have to change cat, get known good from a member breaking their car :y
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: chrisgixer on 31 March 2015, 19:23:35
I used to get this code every other week on my 2.2. and the emissions light would come on.Bought new cat,changed sensors but to no avail..I now only run the car on 97 or 99 premium fuel and the problem has gone away. Costs abit more but at least I'm not resetting the light every 2 weeks. Hope you sort it.

Refit the old cat, or a genuine used one, and move the sensor. Use what fuel you like then :y
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: flyer 0712 on 31 March 2015, 20:37:45
which sensor would need moving and where would it be re-positioned to please as a matter of interest  :y
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: chrisgixer on 31 March 2015, 20:58:01
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90613.0
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: chrisgixer on 31 March 2015, 21:01:24
And

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90475.0
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: chrisgixer on 31 March 2015, 21:02:08
Can't for the life of me find the pic Albatross posted years ago.


Shows the idea perfectly.
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: flyer 0712 on 31 March 2015, 21:03:28
Well we learn new things every day...now I see how its done...cheers  :y
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: chrisgixer on 31 March 2015, 21:11:48
Master did a whole batch up at Sereks. Including mine. :)

I think Serek can do them now as well
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: TheBoy on 31 March 2015, 21:22:16
What's the code? If 0420 (which I think is bank 1, as yours obviously won't have the bank 2 code) is present, then yes moving the sensor location will fix it.

Correction, code as title ::) ;D

:y
2.2 doesn't have a starting cat, does it?  :-\

Thus no option to move lamda beyond main cat as already there...
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: TheBoy on 31 March 2015, 21:24:21
Yup, courtesy of Mr Tunnie, can clearly show 2nd sensor already behind main cat:

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/803897/Omega/Exhaust/2013-05-01%2019.21.32.jpg)
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: TheBoy on 31 March 2015, 21:25:46
Front sensor underneath, out of view, just where pipes go 2 to one at manifold end.

MDTM's grounding strap connected in middle

Rear sensor visible beyond main cat, near the far end.
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: steve6367 on 31 March 2015, 21:51:37
I used to get this code every other week on my 2.2. and the emissions light would come on.Bought new cat,changed sensors but to no avail..I now only run the car on 97 or 99 premium fuel and the problem has gone away. Costs abit more but at least I'm not resetting the light every 2 weeks. Hope you sort it.

Refit the old cat, or a genuine used one, and move the sensor. Use what fuel you like then :y

I have not changed the CAT original VX one of 130K still on the car, but I do have the error.
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: chrisgixer on 31 March 2015, 21:52:11
,oh ok. So just shite cats then. :-\
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: steve6367 on 31 March 2015, 21:53:04
What's the code? If 0420 (which I think is bank 1, as yours obviously won't have the bank 2 code) is present, then yes moving the sensor location will fix it.

Correction, code as title ::) ;D

:y
[/quote]
2.2 doesn't have a starting cat, does it?  :-\


Thus no option to move lamda beyond main cat as already there...

It does / should - certainly my original VX ones does have 2 CATs - in line. After market 2.2 setups don't often seem to though.

From what I can see, Lambda sensor no 2 is down stream of the second (main / big) CAT so I am not sure moving it is a useful option :-(
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: steve6367 on 31 March 2015, 21:54:48
How is the code produced? What output is it looking for from Lambda no 2 to determine the CAT is stuffed? Can it be the sensor, or is this code always the CAT?
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: chrisgixer on 31 March 2015, 22:18:16
This is the image is wanted but it's the v engine one. So nfg

(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/969BDD9A-4E4B-464B-84C3-83B14D94D8E4_zpsegkljkxg.jpg)
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: steve6367 on 31 March 2015, 22:54:07
Thank you - I'll get under the car tomorrow and double check where the second senior is  :y
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: steve6367 on 31 March 2015, 22:56:36
I have fitted one of these, but not on my car. Looks like the second sensor is already post main cat though....

http://www.cats2u.co.uk/popup_image.php?pID=32298&image=0

Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: chrisgixer on 31 March 2015, 23:12:47
Yes that's what TB implied. Sorry. ...up the garden path with that one.  :-[
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: steve6367 on 31 March 2015, 23:21:40
No worries  :y

Does anyone know how the ecu arrives at that code?
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: tunnie on 01 April 2015, 10:22:00
Yup, courtesy of Mr Tunnie, can clearly show 2nd sensor already behind main cat:

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/803897/Omega/Exhaust/2013-05-01%2019.21.32.jpg)

Yes, 2 cats on 2.2 as well. That's the original cat, never touched sensors or anything with it. Unlike the crappy V6 DBW design, it does not need sensors moving.

As others have indicated, cannot stress enough to either keep the original CAT or replace with another known GM from a breaker.

Perhaps HG failure speeded up a sensor failure? I'd look at getting known good ones from breaker here and replace them, give the thread area a blast of plusgas a couple of days before.

Plenty of room around 2.2 zorst to remove the sensors.

Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: steve6367 on 01 April 2015, 10:29:14
Thank you - popped sensors out this morning and both 'look ok'.

I have a couple of spares here, so have swapped the post CAT one to see if that makes any difference.

Found this when under there:

(http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq19/steve6367/da9ad56698557e89504ba0585d6e457e_zpsj5xtoiv8.jpg)

Could that cause the problem? Or will getting it welded up be a waste of money?

In live data what should the post CAT lambda look like?

Steve
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: tunnie on 01 April 2015, 10:39:33
Well that's enough to cause a blow, I've had mine completely go bang and not be attached the to flexi at any point. Still did not cause error codes for me, although it was not driven far after that occurred! Was luckily just after a speed bump near home.

You need to get it welded up, get a replacement flexi off eBay, think size is 50x100 (let me double check)

Drop the cat section, it's dead easy on 2.2 with loads of room. Then take the cat section to a place who does welding, if you can visit master in Nottingham I'd highly reccommend it.  :y
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: steve6367 on 01 April 2015, 10:41:47
Right I shall get back out there and get it off! Got to go to Doncaster on Monday so no pressure! It does not sound like it's blowing btw but I guess you have to fix the faults you can see first.

Steve
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: tunnie on 01 April 2015, 10:43:21
This was the state of mine, before it was changed:

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/803897/Omega/Exhaust/2013-05-01%2015.26.35.jpg)
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: steve6367 on 01 April 2015, 10:47:24
Wow, that was stuffed!

Just made some calls and can get the flexi replaced today for £120 - might have to go for that given the time pressure  :-\
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: tunnie on 01 April 2015, 10:50:32
Wow, that was stuffed!

Just made some calls and can get the flexi replaced today for £120 - might have to go for that given the time pressure  :-\

What is the breakdown on that?

Part is ~£10...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-UNIVERSAL-51MM-EXHAUST-PIPE-FLEXI-FLEX-REPAIR-TUBE-JOIN-2-X-4-650100-/371144483891?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item5669ef6433 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-UNIVERSAL-51MM-EXHAUST-PIPE-FLEXI-FLEX-REPAIR-TUBE-JOIN-2-X-4-650100-/371144483891?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item5669ef6433)

Took all of master around 30mins maybe to change? Including a tea break!

Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: tunnie on 01 April 2015, 10:53:12
Wow, that was stuffed!

Just made some calls and can get the flexi replaced today for £120 - might have to go for that given the time pressure  :-\

This was just a few days earlier, it can quickly break apart once it's started to go:

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/803897/Omega/Exhaust/2013-04-27%2019.40.45.jpg)
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: tunnie on 01 April 2015, 10:54:39
Wow, that was stuffed!

Just made some calls and can get the flexi replaced today for £120 - might have to go for that given the time pressure  :-\

What is the breakdown on that?

Part is ~£10...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-UNIVERSAL-51MM-EXHAUST-PIPE-FLEXI-FLEX-REPAIR-TUBE-JOIN-2-X-4-650100-/371144483891?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item5669ef6433 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-UNIVERSAL-51MM-EXHAUST-PIPE-FLEXI-FLEX-REPAIR-TUBE-JOIN-2-X-4-650100-/371144483891?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item5669ef6433)

Took all of master around 30mins maybe to change? Including a tea break!

Also, any place that does the work, ensure it's put together right afterwards, otherwise it won't line up for the exhaust bolts.  :y
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: steve6367 on 01 April 2015, 12:33:12
£120 to supply part, remove, weld new part in and refit. I offered to bring just the CATs but they wanted the car to ensure correct alignment  :y

I would rather do it myself and save but I need to use the car to go to Doncaster and back Monday and its a bank holiday Friday.

I just hope I don't find out the CAT is stuffed after all this!
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: steve6367 on 01 April 2015, 12:36:17
£120 to supply part, remove, weld new part in and refit. I offered to bring just the CATs but they wanted the car to ensure correct alignment  :y

I would rather do it myself and save but I need to use the car to go to Doncaster and back Monday and its a bank holiday Friday.

I just hope I don't find out the CAT is stuffed after all this!

No idea how I posted that twice!
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: tunnie on 01 April 2015, 14:07:38
£120 to supply part, remove, weld new part in and refit. I offered to bring just the CATs but they wanted the car to ensure correct alignment  :y

I would rather do it myself and save but I need to use the car to go to Doncaster and back Monday and its a bank holiday Friday.

I just hope I don't find out the CAT is stuffed after all this!

Difficult to say, I've never had emissions light on. Even when it's completely blown, and not even connected to the exhaust.  :-\
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: flyer 0712 on 01 April 2015, 17:03:49
Strange that......blueron......should have stated that about his 2.2 with the emissions light coming on and changing fuel cured it.....I have never had a 2.2 that the emissions light came on until now.....After a week or so of  owning this latest one the light came on.....I put cat clean through the system just as a matter of service and after a few days .out went the light....so all was good....i dont do a lot of miles and I always use shell v.plus petrol....on my return from Nottingham i ran low on fuel so stopped to get some and by mistake put in ordinary unleaded and a day later on came the light again....having read ...bluerons....item on here i wondered if that was the reason for my light coming on,so i filled up with v,power and a day or so after out went the light....Now is this just coincidence  or what...as surely the motor is meant to run ok on ordinary unleaded is it not...... :-\ :-\ :-\

Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: steve6367 on 01 April 2015, 17:48:25
O2 Sensor 1 (pre CAT:

(http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq19/steve6367/Bank1%20Sensor1_zpsfzkhnqy3.jpg) (http://s429.photobucket.com/user/steve6367/media/Bank1%20Sensor1_zpsfzkhnqy3.jpg.html)

O2 Sensor 2 (post CAT):

(http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq19/steve6367/Bank1%20Sensor2_zpsjvfx1cjf.jpg) (http://s429.photobucket.com/user/steve6367/media/Bank1%20Sensor2_zpsjvfx1cjf.jpg.html)

Should sensor 2 be cycling like that? Or static?

Many thanks

Steve

Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: TheBoy on 01 April 2015, 21:54:33
CAT looks stuffed to me :(

Get a good 2nd hand one.

For Monday, just drive it with the EML on, if time is against you. The cat is stuffed anyway.
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: steve6367 on 01 April 2015, 22:23:20
CAT looks stuffed to me :(

Get a good 2nd hand one.

For Monday, just drive it with the EML on, if time is against you. The cat is stuffed anyway.

Thank you

It should be a straight line? Lean?

Quandary now is weather to risk the flexi falling apart or get that welded up and then deal with the CAT later.

Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: tunnie on 01 April 2015, 22:29:34
Depends how long before its changed, could survive a bit longer
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: steve6367 on 01 April 2015, 22:33:23
Am I feeling lucky....  :D
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 02 April 2015, 08:50:52
If the flexi is goosed then air will be drawn in after the mixture control O2 sensor.....the result will be the code you are seeing.
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: steve6367 on 02 April 2015, 16:19:27
The noise has stopped, although based TB's comments I suspect the CAT may still give me issues - I will report back!

(http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq19/steve6367/f55c48b606ab192245afa5ea237c45ba_zpsnyjt6ipy.jpg) (http://s429.photobucket.com/user/steve6367/media/f55c48b606ab192245afa5ea237c45ba_zpsnyjt6ipy.jpg.html)

(http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq19/steve6367/16dcf8e29a90cac54cd0ee1ded6d04c7_zpsoymwldjf.jpg) (http://s429.photobucket.com/user/steve6367/media/16dcf8e29a90cac54cd0ee1ded6d04c7_zpsoymwldjf.jpg.html)
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: Steve B on 02 April 2015, 17:59:50
Well That was quick  :y
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: TheBoy on 02 April 2015, 19:20:08
If the flexi is goosed then air will be drawn in after the mixture control O2 sensor.....the result will be the code you are seeing.
But to exactly follow front sensor?  :-\
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: driver115 on 03 April 2015, 14:01:35
shortly after purchasing my 3.2 manual back in 2012 , the engine management system light flashed and stayed on, got this error and others I recall, and was going to have sensors moved, then read the cause could be multivarious including exhaust/manifold /gasket  as well as the sensors  so have lived with the EMS light being permanently on, and from time to time it flickers off for a few miles. Periodically, I connect my laptop and reset just to check that the warning light does not point towards some other problem - other than that - not an MOT failure, and have learned to live with it and refrained from disconnecting the light
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: steve6367 on 03 April 2015, 15:48:07
If the flexi is goosed then air will be drawn in after the mixture control O2 sensor.....the result will be the code you are seeing.
But to exactly follow front sensor?  :-\

Indeed - what should the sensor 2 graph look like? Flat when at idle?
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: steve6367 on 08 April 2015, 19:22:39
Well 450 miles and the light popped back on again, so looks like new CAT time.

Can anyone help me with what the sensor 2 graph should look like?
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: Steve B on 08 April 2015, 19:28:30
Well 450 miles and the light popped back on again, so looks like new CAT time.

Can anyone help me with what the sensor 2 graph should look like?
I can show you a live data readings of a 2.2 that was running fine  :y
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: steve6367 on 08 April 2015, 19:36:23
That would be great - thank you
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: Steve B on 08 April 2015, 19:39:46
That would be great - thank you
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/Livedata_2002%20%282%29_Omega-B_Engine__Z%2022%20XE_201411171302.csv
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: steve6367 on 08 April 2015, 19:44:17
Thank you  :y
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: Steve B on 08 April 2015, 19:46:50
did you open it with excel  :y

Thats on a hot engine on tickover 2.2
Title: Re: P0420 - Catalyst Efficency Above Threshold - on 2.2
Post by: steve6367 on 08 April 2015, 20:29:08
Not yet as on tablet, but will do shortly  :y