Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: hoj on 15 April 2015, 22:49:32
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Your on the motorway and your in the fast lane you overtake a car in the middle lane
and indicate to pull into the said middle lane
At the same time
A car in the slow lane needs to overtake the car in front of him so also indicates to pull into the middle lane
hence going into the same space you are
Who has right of way?
Anyone/No one?
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You need to give way/keep clear as the overtaking vehicle... Arguably the vehicle in lane one shouldn't move out unless it's safe to do...
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Ultimately, I think, both are in a grey area as neither are established in lane.
But to me, lane three will be coming up on lane 1, so should be in an easier position to avoid, hence IMO if anything, lane 1 should be excused slightly more than lane 3. But that's just me. ;D
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not sure anyone has 'right of way' as Al said he should not pull unless safe to do so :y
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Would end up as a "knock for knock" IMHO, as both drivers should satisfy themselves that the lane they are about to inhabit is clear. Both are indicating and therefore an obvious hazard to the other.
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IMO...its a bit of 'even steven'. The fast lane chappie, should be observing all traffic in front of him when he plans his manoeuvre, Likewise the slow lane chappie should be observing what is happening behind, and also in front.
Its one of those situations where to be a good driver, you should be aware of all things happening around you. Not the usual attitude 'I am doing this, sod you, get out of my way' :y
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if everyone indicated for every lane change and let it flash 4 times before moving, like they should, it wouldn't arise. nor would a lot of accidents
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It is one of few situations where a short toot is genuinely in order... not a "Sod off out of my lane" toot, but more of a brief "Cooey, there's actually another car next to you in your blind spot" toot ;)
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Woo. That envisaged a much less differential in speed than I had in mind. A short toot would be way too late in the scenario I had in mind. :)
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If you're both doing 70ish and heading for the same space in lane two, the lateral closing speed isn't much different from say 40... obviously more ground being covered, and a panic reaction to a late shoulder check has the potential to cause more chaos at the higher speed ;)
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If you're both doing 70ish and heading for the same space in lane two, the lateral closing speed isn't much different from say 40... obviously more ground being covered, and a panic reaction to a late shoulder check has the potential to cause more chaos at the higher speed ;)
At the speeds I envisaged, I wouldn't be moving to lane 2 if lane 1 was looking like it even smells like it wants to pull to lane 2.
Point being, a toot won't help. ;)
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Personally,I would say it's about 'risk assessment' and seeing the appalling standard of general driving on a daily basis, especially on the motorways where in all honesty a lot of drivers do what they want without much thought to what's going on around them.Then it's more about your own personal safety and for me I tend to back off and presume that they'll do what they intend to do without a thought to me.I might take a bit longer to get to where I'm going,but so far it's worked for me...famous last words. ::)
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Give way to traffic approaching from your right.
Don't know the rule or number in the book of rules 'highway code'
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Give way to traffic approaching from your right.
Don't know the rule or number in the book of rules 'highway code'
That's true of giveway lines and stop lines (having first stopped of course), but overtaking vehicle must keep clear of the vehicle being overtaken :y
But as noted, rules mean nowt unless you follow the mirror position mirror speed mirror signal mirror look mirror manoeuvre routine.
If you only do one of those things it should be the looking bit and preferably over the shoulder into the lane that you intend to move into ::)
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If you're both doing 70ish and heading for the same space in lane two, the lateral closing speed isn't much different from say 40... obviously more ground being covered, and a panic reaction to a late shoulder check has the potential to cause more chaos at the higher speed ;)
At the speeds I envisaged, I wouldn't be moving to lane 2 if lane 1 was looking like it even smells like it wants to pull to lane 2.
Point being, a toot won't help. ;)
I like that, I can relate to that as well. ;D ;D :y
The OP's question is I believe, just one example of forward thinking and observation and if I was in lane three and suspected a car in lane one was even near enough to the car in front of them to overtake I would certainly stay out there until totally clear to pull back in. Treat every other driver as a hazard and you'll live longer. :y
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If you're both doing 70ish and heading for the same space in lane two, the lateral closing speed isn't much different from say 40... obviously more ground being covered, and a panic reaction to a late shoulder check has the potential to cause more chaos at the higher speed ;)
At the speeds I envisaged, I wouldn't be moving to lane 2 if lane 1 was looking like it even smells like it wants to pull to lane 2.
Point being, a toot won't help. ;)
In that case, the driver in lane 3 should have spotted the situation developing from quite a way back, whereas the driver moving into lane 2 might well not have been able to see far enough back to see a significantly faster car approaching 2 lanes across from him and with, most likely, a car in lane 2 obstructing his view to the rear anyway.
Not saying there is a right of way in any case, but the car in lane 3 is most likely best appraised of the situation and, after all, there's no reason why he can't delay his return to lane 2.
Given the implication that the car in lane 3 is travelling at considerable speed relative to the other traffic, its' driver should really be aware that he might exceed the capabilities of others to appreciate his closing speed IMHO.
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Ditto to what YZ250 & Chris have said - at least that's how I tend to drive as I've had far too many people try to drive into the side of me just overtaking them let alone if I'm in L3 and they're in L1.. I swear a large proportion of drivers must keep their white stick in the car with them.
If it does happen, though, then I don't think anyone has the right of way.. it's not like sailing, I don't think, shouting "STARBOARD!" won't help ;D
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;D ;D ;D
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Nautical comparisons are not entirely unfounded... Not called the rules of the road by coincidence.
Try navigating a busy river without consideration and not hit anything ;D
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Indeed. ;D I think the most important thing is to be realistic. It's no good bemoaning the lack of use of correct procedures when it's already gone tats up. Too bloody late.
Righteousness can often be more dangerous than recklessness. Especially if having a bad day. Tired. Distracted. Less competent. Blah.....
Although, it must be said, the op hasn't described the exact circumstances of his particular incident.
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Try navigating a busy river without consideration and not hit anything ;D
Last time I tried that the only things I hit were the dock.. the riverbank.. a sand bar.. :-[ luckily only hit the latter slowly so we could all stand at the back and reverse back off it! ;D
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It's all about defensive driving and not offensive driving,but as we all know there's not a bad driver out there and after spending 20 years of attending RTA's and not RTC's as they are now called, ::) and without exception every one was the other persons fault.....well that's what THEY said :-\ So really you can kick this one around all day and there may well be a definitive answer to the original question, but in a way it's academic, as it's not always what you expect to happen due to the other persons attitude.....and guess what it'll be your fault anyway,so why worry ..just cover your own arse :y
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The biggest car has the right of way. ;)
Might is right. :D
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I tend to use the company's vehicles as battering rams as it saves me no end of money on body repairs to my car :y
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Yes, I agree, forward thinking as to what other drivers may do (saved me a few times when riding a motorcycle),and when in the outside lane you have the speed and priority to remain there until it is safe to change lane when able to do so : :y
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Ditto to what YZ250 & Chris have said - at least that's how I tend to drive as I've had far too many people try to drive into the side of me just overtaking them let alone if I'm in L3 and they're in L1.. I swear a large proportion of drivers must keep their white stick in the car with them.
If it does happen, though, then I don't think anyone has the right of way.. it's not like sailing, I don't think, shouting "STARBOARD!" won't help ;D
No right of way in sailing, you either are the stand on or give way vessel and either way rule 16 is king ;)
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For something with no right of way the RRS use the phrase "right of way" a lot ;)
I was referring to the "vessels on a port tack shall keep clear of those on a starboard tack" though, rule 10 :P
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And like their land lubbing brethren, pedalos must give way to everyone :D
Red to red, go ahead... Green to green should never be seen. And if in doubt, always turn right :y
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Depends what make of car you drive, If its a BMW then you are automatically wrong what ever you do ::) ;D ;D ;D
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And like their land lubbing brethren, pedalos must give way to everyone :D
Red to red, go ahead... Green to green should never be seen. And if in doubt, always turn right :y
Hovercraft technically should be given-way to by everyone, although in practice they move so quick that by the time you have made your intentions clear he has already passed you. ;D
One of my favourite things I like teaching soldiers when sailing is sticking the boat in the middle of the solent, clear of the restriction zone, hove-to on a starboard tack and then stopping everything while we sit and have lunch. They are amazed that you can just do that and everyone goes around you.
For something with no right of way the RRS use the phrase "right of way" a lot ;)
Right of way does not exist in ColRegs, you will fail any exam you take if you make mention to it. I have seen it done ;D
I was referring to the "vessels on a port tack shall keep clear of those on a starboard tack" though, rule 10 :P
I got muddled in my rules. It is rule 8 I meant:
Action to Avoid Collision
(a) Any action to avoid collision shall be taken in accordance with the Rules of this Part and shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, be positive, made in ample time and with due regard to the observance of good seamanship.
(b) Any alteration of course and/or speed to avoid collision shall, if the circumstances of the case admit be large enough to be readily apparent to another vessel observing visually or by radar; a succession of small alterations of course and/or speed shall be avoided.
(c) If there is sufficient sea room, alteration of course alone may be the most effective action to avoid a close-quarters situation provided that it is made in good time, is substantial and does not result in another close-quarters situation.
(d) Action taken to avoid collision with another vessel shall be such as to result in passing at a safe distance. The effectiveness of the action shall be carefully checked until the other vessel is finally past and clear.
(e) If necessary to avoid collision or allow more time to asses the situation, a vessel may slacken her speed or take all way off by stopping or reversing her means of propulsion.
(f)
(i) A vessel which, by any of these rules, is required not to impede the passage or safe passage of another vessel shall when required by the circumstances of the case, take early action to allow sufficient sea room for the safe passage of the other vessel.
(ii) A vessel required not to impede the passage or safe passage of another vessel is not relieved of this obligation if approaching the other vessel so as to involve risk of collision and shall, when taking action, have full regard to the action which may be required by the rules of this part.
(iii) A vessel the passage of which is not to be impeded remains fully obliged to comply with the rules of this part when the two vessels are approaching one another so as to involve risk of collision. :y
If the Highway code was written a bit like this then it should get rid of this right of way nonsense ::)
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I tend to use the company's vehicles as battering rams as it saves me no end of money on body repairs to my car :y
ahhh I see my training is paying off lol............. :y
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We all have a duty to drive with due care and attention. This means defensive driving and accepting that like ourselves other people also make mistakes.
Riding a motorcycle is very good for practicing observation and defensive riding as it is irrelevant who's fault it is as it is you that is going to get hurt. :( :( :(
I would say in the situation mentioned, that there is more of a a being polite driver onus by the person overtaking in lane three as they have more options and they are also not impeding the car in lane one who wants to overtake a slower moving vehicle.
If there is a collision between the cars in lane one and three, where they both are trying to occupy the same space, then IMO they are both not driving with due care and attention. :-[ :-[ :-[
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Of course the common way to overcome the lane 1 and 3 dilemma is to stay in the middle lane at all times! :D
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Of course the common way to overcome the lane 1 and 3 dilemma is to stay in the middle lane at all times! :D
...yeah....while admiring the view. Aye Tig ::) ;D
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Of course the common way to overcome the lane 1 and 3 dilemma is to stay in the middle lane at all times! :D
...yeah....while admiring the view. Aye Tig ::) ;D
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No Chris the determined middle lane driver wears virtual blinkers, so he/she is oblivious to his/her surroundings and fellow motorists! ::) ;D
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Of course the common way to overcome the lane 1 and 3 dilemma is to stay in the middle lane at all times! :D
...yeah....while admiring the view. Aye Tig ::) ;D
What? Looking through the windows? Sheesh! Observant drivers in your middle lane, clearly. Down here on the M3, they're normally sitting with a clipboard / iPad on their laps, gradually slowing down until they're being overtaken by lorries on the inside.
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It's such a grey area, as said, surprised no-one's been able to quote directly from a highway code/similar book. It's a serious point, made, of course,and in the event of a collision - who is responsible - who's insurance pays for the damage/injury to who? Hmm...
Have to say I normally merrily bimble along on motorways in lane 1, and can sit behind a lorry, pop the cruise control on, knowing I'm at an economical speed, and will get to my destination eventually. :) Hate middle lane owner's club (who doesnt?) but lane 3 has unofficially become the 'Exec Saloon / Porsche / Rep / Chav in Fiesta' lane where you can apparently do 90mph all day long without anyone batting an eyelid. The concept of a vehicle then overtaking said person in lane 2 seems to massively aggravate the lane 3 guy in the 5-series who has 'the right' to be doing 95mph, were it not for this 'idiot' 'crawling along' at a mere 70mph in some beat-up old Vauxhall Omega, getting in his way.
Off topic, but was in a 20 the other day. Car 6 inch off my back bumper. Now to be fair I was doing 22-25mph, so really I was speeding. But he was there, waving his arms, fuming mad at this 'idiot' in front of him. Sorry, but if you do the maths I'm basically doing 20% over the speed limit. >:( That intimidating attitude precipitates me to want to move to 30, and potentially get done for speeding... again. And it's ultimately that intimidating attitude that causes accidents.
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I realise this is totally pedantic relevant to Op's initial post but, I must have been labouring under a misconception all these years?? I always understood that on a 3 lane motorway, lane 2 is the 'fast' lane and lane 3 is the overtaking lane?? It never made sense to me as, if the middle lane is the fast lane, e.g. travelling at max allowable speed, to overtake in any lane would be speeding...?? :-\
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Off topic, but was in a 20 the other day. Car 6 inch off my back bumper. Now to be fair I was doing 22-25mph, so really I was speeding. But he was there, waving his arms, fuming mad at this 'idiot' in front of him. Sorry, but if you do the maths I'm basically doing 20% over the speed limit. >:( That intimidating attitude precipitates me to want to move to 30, and potentially get done for speeding... again. And it's ultimately that intimidating attitude that causes accidents.
I normally "drive to rule" if that happens. Down to the speed limit and stop for every old lady who looks like she might be thinking about crossing. The retard behind isn't going to be able to stop if anything happens, so I have to be doubly sure that I have all bases covered.
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I realise this is totally pedantic relevant to Op's initial post but, I must have been labouring under a misconception all these years?? I always understood that on a 3 lane motorway, lane 2 is the 'fast' lane and lane 3 is the overtaking lane?? It never made sense to me as, if the middle lane is the fast lane, e.g. travelling at max allowable speed, to overtake in any lane would be speeding...?? :-\
There is no distinction between any lanes on a motorway except that certain vehicles are prohibited from the right hand lane. (towing vehicles, minibuses, goods vehicles, etc.)
You should be driving in the left hand lane when the road is clear, and move to the right to overtake, moving back left when the road is clear. Weight of traffic might result in vehicles cruising in all lanes, of course. ::)
Oh, and when there are more than 3 lanes, the majority of drivers seen unable to comprehend that the above can still be applied. The middle lane hoggers appear to gauge their driving by the numb er of lanes between them and the central reservation, and ignore any lanes to their left, save to swerve across them when they come to exit the motorway. ::)
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Oh, and when there are more than 3 lanes, the majority of drivers seen unable to comprehend that the above can still be applied. The middle lane hoggers appear to gauge their driving by the numb er of lanes between them and the central reservation, and ignore any lanes to their left, save to swerve across them when they come to exit the motorway. ::)
Yes, yes and thrice yes! Drives me absolutely nuts. 2am, deserted M25 and what do you find? Someone in L4 of 5 with nothing around them.
Makes me feel like installing something like this on the truck: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3042699/Bomb-disposal-scrambled-terror-police-alert-dummy-wearing-balaclava-spotted-boat-sailing-Thames-fake-missile-launcher-top.html ;D
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Oh, and when there are more than 3 lanes, the majority of drivers seen unable to comprehend that the above can still be applied. The middle lane hoggers appear to gauge their driving by the numb er of lanes between them and the central reservation, and ignore any lanes to their left, save to swerve across them when they come to exit the motorway. ::)
Yes, yes and thrice yes! Drives me absolutely nuts. 2am, deserted M25 and what do you find? Someone in L4 of 5 with nothing around them.
Makes me feel like installing something like this on the truck: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3042699/Bomb-disposal-scrambled-terror-police-alert-dummy-wearing-balaclava-spotted-boat-sailing-Thames-fake-missile-launcher-top.html ;D
Yes, a kind of "Right turn, Clyde" on steroids. ;D
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I realise this is totally pedantic relevant to Op's initial post but, I must have been labouring under a misconception all these years?? I always understood that on a 3 lane motorway, lane 2 is the 'fast' lane and lane 3 is the overtaking lane?? It never made sense to me as, if the middle lane is the fast lane, e.g. travelling at max allowable speed, to overtake in any lane would be speeding...?? :-\
There is no distinction between any lanes on a motorway except that certain vehicles are prohibited from the right hand lane. (towing vehicles, minibuses, goods vehicles, etc.)
You should be driving in the left hand lane when the road is clear, and move to the right to overtake, moving back left when the road is clear. Weight of traffic might result in vehicles cruising in all lanes, of course. ::)
Oh, and when there are more than 3 lanes, the majority of drivers seen unable to comprehend that the above can still be applied. The middle lane hoggers appear to gauge their driving by the numb er of lanes between them and the central reservation, and ignore any lanes to their left, save to swerve across them when they come to exit the motorway. ::)
Indeed
Simply,keep left. It's in the Highway Code. It's how motorways where designed afaik.
The only time not keeping left is the ideal is when traffic is joining the motorway. But that is simply an extension of overtaking slower traffic in that moving to lane 2 means passing slower vehicles to give them room IF SAFE TO DO SO. Not shouting here but emphasising the fact that it still isn't appropriate to change lanes and cause other traffic to swerve or brake to accommodate, more that driving in lane 1 means one might very well need to adjust ones speed to allow traffic onto the motorway.
http://www.m.driving-test-success.com/motorwaydriving.html
It's a very simple theory. Keep left. Only moving right to overtake. Regardless of the number of lanes. :y
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I realise this is totally pedantic relevant to Op's initial post but, I must have been labouring under a misconception all these years?? I always understood that on a 3 lane motorway, lane 2 is the 'fast' lane and lane 3 is the overtaking lane?? It never made sense to me as, if the middle lane is the fast lane, e.g. travelling at max allowable speed, to overtake in any lane would be speeding...?? :-\
Always use the left hand lane unless actually overtaking unless it is unsafe to do so.
Pretty clear cut imho ::)
Doesn't matter whether the road has two, three, five or even six lanes. Unless you are passing a vehicle to your left, there is a red cross above the lane or the lane has become an exit lane, then all the lanes are equally overtaking lanes except for the leftmost one :y
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I utterly agree although on roads like the m25 by heathrow where you have 5 lanes it gets tricky. If everyone followed the highway code on that stretch in the mornings there would be no space to pull in to the nearside and make you exit. It's already like threading a needle though a gnat's vagina as it is.
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I realise this is totally pedantic relevant to Op's initial post but, I must have been labouring under a misconception all these years?? I always understood that on a 3 lane motorway, lane 2 is the 'fast' lane and lane 3 is the overtaking lane?? It never made sense to me as, if the middle lane is the fast lane, e.g. travelling at max allowable speed, to overtake in any lane would be speeding...?? :-\
Always use the left hand lane unless actually overtaking unless it is unsafe to do so.
Pretty clear cut imho ::)
Doesn't matter whether the road has two, three, five or even six lanes. Unless you are passing a vehicle to your left, there is a red cross above the lane or the lane has become an exit lane, then all the lanes are equally overtaking lanes except for the leftmost one :y
You forgot the bmw and Audi rule. If there is a queue on the motorway, due to an accident or roadworks, both of these marques can use the hard shoulder to proceed to the next exit. :y
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I utterly agree although on roads like the m25 by heathrow where you have 5 lanes it gets tricky. If everyone followed the highway code on that stretch in the mornings there would be no space to pull in to the nearside and make you exit. It's already like threading a needle though a gnat's vagina as it is.
Yep, it's sheer weight of traffic that buggers it. Motorways where never designed for that much traffic.
Trouble is, those habits formed in rush hour by a driving population never trained to drive on them are carried on at all other times. So drivers just sit in any lane....although mostly the middle lane.
Sometimes legitimately, in quiet times, for a reason such as Dear leaping from the hard shoulder, such as they do between Jcn 10 and 8/9 on the m4 for example. Or that lane one is so rutted the car won't drive straight and tram lines alarmingly.
But none of that means it's ok to sit in lane 2 or 3 if traffic comes up behind you.
...in fact, if nothing is in the road with you, who cares. Do what you like. Empty motorway nothing around, sit in lane 3 away from the hard shoulder, nobody cares. Until somebody comes up on you of course. Such occasions are very rare on busy motorways these days though, obviously.
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Pass Jn12 in lane three, then straight into Lane one. Stay there to Jn11 then once the slip roads merge, into Lane one. Second exit at the roundabout, keep left and stay in lane one all the way to the Jn12 exit, upto the T4 roundabout and either second exit for M25 clockwise, or third exit for anywhere within Heathrow...
Bish,bash bosh 8)
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On topic but vNSFW (heavy swearing) :y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5dL4DPm-DE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5dL4DPm-DE)
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Another truck driver about to stress himself into hospital...
How not to drive down a motorway 101 ;D
I wonder whether the car driver was foreign :-\ not that that is an excuse mind...
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On topic but vNSFW (heavy swearing) :y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5dL4DPm-DE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5dL4DPm-DE)
Best video I've seen in ages.. ;D ;D
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Like I said, until something comes up behiiiiiiiind youuuuuuu. Pmsl. ;D
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I utterly agree although on roads like the m25 by heathrow where you have 5 lanes it gets tricky. If everyone followed the highway code on that stretch in the mornings there would be no space to pull in to the nearside and make you exit. It's already like threading a needle though a gnat's vagina as it is.
Ah! but then they'd also be observing:
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When you can see well ahead and the road conditions are good, you should:
drive at a steady cruising speed which you and your vehicle can handle safely and is within the speed limit (see the Speed limits table)
keep a safe distance from the vehicle in front and increase the gap on wet or icy roads, or in fog (see Rules 126 and 235).
.. such a distance would permit other cars to filter back into the left hand lane and exit easily.
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On topic but vNSFW (heavy swearing) :y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5dL4DPm-DE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5dL4DPm-DE)
Excellent ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D