Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: Pmacca2000 on 23 January 2017, 12:36:08
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clearly VX has a sports range in the VXR/OPC fleet, how good would it be to have one VXSV /OSV or Elite as a luxury brand?
Im not saying car development is cheap but maybe get the chassis of a commodore and fit a 500hp V8 with a 7 speed auto to a soft suspension set up like the omega.
internally fit it out with night vision like Hitler's taxi, leather heated seats front and rear, four zone climate control, large touchscreen centre console?
I'm guessing GM have the parts to make it happen and at the price £50-60,000
Maybe add some bespoke parts, new steering wheel and gear selector maybe a sun blind?
Like the VXR8 you wouldn't see many but you'd be selling exclusivity and with a new badge and isn't that what most BMW, Mercedes Audi drivers are after?
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Vauxhall (and indeed Ford) decided to get out of the big / luxury car market about 15 years ago, and the chances of that decision being reversed are something less than zero. ;)
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I'm stuck between if only and what if ?
As always it's a question of money and a willingness to do it and a market for the product and with ford out of the game VX could catch them napping?
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They do... it's called Cadillac and they no longer sell cars here.
And that's that.
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clearly VX has a sports range in the VXR/OPC fleet, how good would it be to have one VXSV /OSV or Elite as a luxury brand?
Im not saying car development is cheap but maybe get the chassis of a commodore and fit a 500hp V8 with a 7 speed auto to a soft suspension set up like the omega.
internally fit it out with night vision like Hitler's taxi, leather heated seats front and rear, four zone climate control, large touchscreen centre console?
I'm guessing GM have the parts to make it happen and at the price £50-60,000
Maybe add some bespoke parts, new steering wheel and gear selector maybe a sun blind?
Like the VXR8 you wouldn't see many but you'd be selling exclusivity and with a new badge and isn't that what most BMW, Mercedes Audi drivers are after?
Wasn't I just talking about this very same idea the other day? :D
But why automatic? We already have plenty of barges with auto transmissions. What we are lacking are RWD super saloons with a big engine and a manual gearbox.
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Vauxhall (and indeed Ford) decided to get out of the big / luxury car market about 15 years ago, and the chances of that decision being reversed are something less than zero. ;)
And goven what they've tried to do with the Vignale sub-brand, that is a very good thing indeed!
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<Consults dictionary>
<Lots of nearly-hits describing female genitalia>
<Ahh, here we are>
Vignale : [vig-narrr-lay]
noun
1. "Shitbox in drag"
;D
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Suddenly Escort GhiaX doesn't sound pretentious :o
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<Consults dictionary>
<Lots of nearly-hits describing female genitalia>
<Ahh, here we are>
Vignale : [vig-narrr-lay]
noun
1. "Shitbox in drag"
;D
2. Long established Italian coach builder bought by Ford and pissed away.
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In answer to the auto box question I would say the VXR8 is a manual or tiptronic super saloon and you wouldn't want to directly compete with your own brand so by going the RWD auto rout your tailoring one for sports saloon and one for luxury bardge, that said put a 5.0 V8 under its petticoats and you'll manage to enjoy both worlds.
I understand what your saying about this idea being a non starter and I do understand why but, like most things cars have trends.
4X4s, then MPVs and now SUVs.
I would argue the Cadillac brand didn't do well in Europe due to build quality?
They always seemed cheep and you can't get far charging what I'd expect to be north of £30,000 for a car that feels cheap ?
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The autobox in the VXR8 is identical to the one used in the Holden Calais/Chevrolet Caprice... incidentally the Calais isn't available with a manual box ;)
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In answer to the auto box question I would say the VXR8 is a manual or tiptronic super saloon and you wouldn't want to directly compete with your own brand so by going the RWD auto rout your tailoring one for sports saloon and one for luxury bardge, that said put a 5.0 V8 under its petticoats and you'll manage to enjoy both worlds.
I understand what your saying about this idea being a non starter and I do understand why but, like most things cars have trends.
4X4s, then MPVs and now SUVs.
I would argue the Cadillac brand didn't do well in Europe due to build quality?
They always seemed cheep and you can't get far charging what I'd expect to be north of £30,000 for a car that feels cheap ?
I thought the VXR8 was available with both manual and auto since the HSV counterpart is.
But it doesn't matter. GM is very unfortunately killing the Holden Commordore this year. It wont even make it to the end of the year. So the HSV versions which are based on the Commodore will die too. The VXR8 is just a rebadged HSV so this is the last year for the VXR8 too. As you see, your proposed car would not compete with the VXR8. ;)
Once the Commodore is gone, and I believe the Falcon is gone too or will be soon, we will be starved for RWD 4 door larger super saloons with a manual transmission. Specially now that even BMW sold out and is dropping the manual gearbox option for the M5. And M6 for that matter. So the only larger 4 door super saloon with a manual option will be the Jaguar XF-R. But if even BMW sold out, how long will it take for Jaguar to stop too, if they haven't already?
We desperately need a 4 door larger super saloon with a manual gearbox. We have so many already with an auto box. Don't need yet another one IMO. :)
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We will see driverless car swamping the roads in our lifetime. This is apparently the future. Manufacturers are concentrating their R&D on this kind of shite and have no interest making cars for enthusiasts who actually enjoy the experience of driving their products.
We are the last generation of humans who have the freedom to get in our cars and drive them how we want, albeit possibly suffering the legal consequences if we are caught breaking the rules.
Meanwhile, the news today said the speed limit on the M1 is being cut to 60mph in the name of saving the polar bears or some other such nonsense.
Expect the rest of the motorway network to follow suit in the foreseeable future.
The future is bleak I'm afraid.
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I thought the VXR8 was available with both manual and auto since the HSV counterpart is.
But it doesn't matter. GM is very unfortunately killing the Holden Commordore this year. It wont even make it to the end of the year. So the HSV versions which are based on the Commodore will die too. The VXR8 is just a rebadged HSV so this is the last year for the VXR8 too. As you see, your proposed car would not compete with the VXR8. ;)
Once the Commodore is gone, and I believe the Falcon is gone too or will be soon, we will be starved for RWD 4 door larger super saloons with a manual transmission. Specially now that even BMW sold out and is dropping the manual gearbox option for the M5. And M6 for that matter. So the only larger 4 door super saloon with a manual option will be the Jaguar XF-R. But if even BMW sold out, how long will it take for Jaguar to stop too, if they haven't already?
We desperately need a 4 door larger super saloon with a manual gearbox. We have so many already with an auto box. Don't need yet another one IMO. :)
Nobody needs one at all, let alone desperately. A 1.0l Corsa would be good for probably 90% of my motoring needs.There are good reasons for most big power engines having auto boxes bolted to them; that most buyers prefer them is one(look at how few manual V8 BMWs, or recent Porsches there are), and that manual boxes that can reliably handle the power are generally best described as agricultural.
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We will see driverless car swamping the roads in our lifetime. This is apparently the future. Manufacturers are concentrating their R&D on this kind of shite and have no interest making cars for enthusiasts who actually enjoy the experience of driving their products.
We are the last generation of humans who have the freedom to get in our cars and drive them how we want, albeit possibly suffering the legal consequences if we are caught breaking the rules.
Meanwhile, the news today said the speed limit on the M1 is being cut to 60mph in the name of saving the polar bears or some other such nonsense.
Expect the rest of the motorway network to follow suit in the foreseeable future.
The future is bleak I'm afraid.
This im afraid is what will happen. In 20 years time the number of people learning to drive will decrease, self driving cars will be taxi's as no point owning one you will just order one through an app on your phone get in and off you go :'( The rise of self driving cars will also put paid to driving jobs where eventually no one will drive.
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http://gmauthority.com/blog/2017/01/chevrolet-caprice-ppv-will-expire-this-year-no-direct-replacement-planned/
Have a read down the comments... There's a suggestion a ways down the page that GM could have Buick as it's global car brand...
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I thought the VXR8 was available with both manual and auto since the HSV counterpart is.
But it doesn't matter. GM is very unfortunately killing the Holden Commordore this year. It wont even make it to the end of the year. So the HSV versions which are based on the Commodore will die too. The VXR8 is just a rebadged HSV so this is the last year for the VXR8 too. As you see, your proposed car would not compete with the VXR8. ;)
Once the Commodore is gone, and I believe the Falcon is gone too or will be soon, we will be starved for RWD 4 door larger super saloons with a manual transmission. Specially now that even BMW sold out and is dropping the manual gearbox option for the M5. And M6 for that matter. So the only larger 4 door super saloon with a manual option will be the Jaguar XF-R. But if even BMW sold out, how long will it take for Jaguar to stop too, if they haven't already?
We desperately need a 4 door larger super saloon with a manual gearbox. We have so many already with an auto box. Don't need yet another one IMO. :)
Nobody needs one at all,[/b] let alone desperately. A 1.0l Corsa would be good for probably 90% of my motoring needs.There are good reasons for most big power engines having auto boxes bolted to them; that most buyers prefer them is one(look at how few manual V8 BMWs, or recent Porsches there are), and that manual boxes that can reliably handle the power are generally best described as agricultural.
Well, I guess it's only safe to speak for yourself. Hence why on my post I added IMO. ;)
Fact is, there are people who like to enjoy driving their own cars and yes, shifting. Just look online. I know several personally. Pretty much everybody I know or hang around with, besides some old timers friends with my in-law.
It is also a very regional thing. The U.S. and the UK are at the top of not wanting to bother to shift their own cars. Continental Europe, not really. This is why for example the U.S. and UK do not get the Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio in manual, while continental Europe does. Because people still appreciate and buy manuals here.
There may not be enough people to justify every single one being available in manual. After all most like what is easier, regardless of what. But there are still enough enthusiasts to warrant special or selected models to be sold in manual.
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We will see driverless car swamping the roads in our lifetime. This is apparently the future. Manufacturers are concentrating their R&D on this kind of shite and have no interest making cars for enthusiasts who actually enjoy the experience of driving their products.
We are the last generation of humans who have the freedom to get in our cars and drive them how we want, albeit possibly suffering the legal consequences if we are caught breaking the rules.
Meanwhile, the news today said the speed limit on the M1 is being cut to 60mph in the name of saving the polar bears or some other such nonsense.
Expect the rest of the motorway network to follow suit in the foreseeable future.
The future is bleak I'm afraid.
Yes, unfortunately you are right. It looks bleak indeed. :(
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Is the VXR8 7 speed though?
I'm saying 7 speed thinking it may help efficacy (mpg) and won't give the car the urgency or sporty feel of the VXR8 unless provoked as we're aiming for luxury express rather than sound barrier performance.
The idea of taking VX up market means Auto doesn't it, jaguar, most Mercedes, Lexus LS400 etc seem to be on the hole automatic?
VX don't need to compete against them selves, but add a different aspect to the range, useing a commodore chassis, RWD and less aggressive body kit, the wood, plush leather, deep carpets and extra kit that's not likely to be in a VXR8 should make its place at the top of the range alongside the VX clear while serving 2 different markets?
Think modern senator with screens in headrest or omega V8 levels of kit
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Anything with an LSx lump only needs three gears... 1st for starting off, 4th,for town work and 6th for cruising...
It could actually get away with only having 6th, but the clutch won't thank you for it.
There is scope for something to develop from the Camaro, as that is essentially a Holden VF chassis. But don't hold your breath, as the market demands SUVs and MPVs and cheap functional run arounds.
The closest you thing currently on the market to a modest rwd family saloon is a 4x2 Hilux double cab with a bed cover. If you need an estate, get a full box put on the back...
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Is the VXR8 7 speed though?
I'm saying 7 speed thinking it may help efficacy (mpg) and won't give the car the urgency or sporty feel of the VXR8 unless provoked as we're aiming for luxury express rather than sound barrier performance.
The idea of taking VX up market means Auto doesn't it, jaguar, most Mercedes, Lexus LS400 etc seem to be on the hole automatic?
VX don't need to compete against them selves, but add a different aspect to the range, useing a commodore chassis, RWD and less aggressive body kit, the wood, plush leather, deep carpets and extra kit that's not likely to be in a VXR8 should make its place at the top of the range alongside the VX clear while serving 2 different markets?
Think modern senator with screens in headrest or omega V8 levels of kit
OK. I see now that we are talking about two different things or cars. You are talking Senator while I'm talking Lotus Carlton. :)
But to be honest there is space for both and they could be based off the same car. Similarly to the HSV Senator or Grange and the HSV GTS. One is ultimate luxury and the other ultimate performance. Both based on the same car. :y
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Really? ???
There is such a thing... It comes on the Holden VF chassis.
You can even have an estate if you wish...
But order it now, because after next year you won't be able to :-X
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Really? ???
There is such a thing... It comes on the Holden VF chassis.
You can even have an estate if you wish...
But order it now, because after next year you won't be able to :-X
Really, what? Don't understand the question. I'm obviously aware of the Holding and HSV line, as I have repeatedly mentioned them, including in my very last post. So I don't see what it has to do with the topic at hand.
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Rabbiting on about the VP Senator Grange/SS platform... and saying that it's shame that you can't build a car to meet two different criteria.
Clearly it was a successful philosophy and, for now at least, still in place.
However times change, either accept it and move on, or do something about it. Simples.
At the end of the day, the demands of the buying public dictates that reasonably priced, large rwd saloons are a very niche market, and no amount of sepia shading is going to change that. Never has and never will.
HSV is a badge engineering exercise run by Holden in the same way that VXR and OPC are for Vauxhall and Opel respectively, rather than a separate range.
I'll stop there, as this will turn into another incited rant :-X
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Rabbiting on about the VP Senator Grange/SS platform... and saying that it's shame that you can't build a car to meet two different criteria.
Clearly it was a successful philosophy and, for now at least, still in place.
However times change, either accept it and move on, or do something about it. Simples.
At the end of the day, the demands of the buying public dictates that reasonably priced, large rwd saloons are a very niche market, and no amount of sepia shading is going to change that. Never has and never will.
HSV is a badge engineering exercise run by Holden in the same way that VXR and OPC are for Vauxhall and Opel respectively, rather than a separate range.
I'll stop there, as this will turn into another incited rant :-X
I didn't say it's a shame anybody can't build a car to meet two different criteria. Where did I write that? I said that since I noticed Pmacca2000 and I were actually talking about 2 different type of cars, a single platform could be used to build both "our" cars. And I then gave the Senator and GTS as an example of two cars similar to what each of us seem to want and which are built based on the same car.
Then you jumped in basically saying to buy a Holden now and shut up. Which has nothing to do with the topic. I know you can buy a Holden now, at least if you live in RHD territory. But we are talking about the future. Discussing options and solution for the future. Which is why your post makes no sense and is out of place.
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Actually, you inferred it.
I don't always have time or inclination to write verbose prose that I might explain every nuance of the thought process, but rather presume that the reader might actually be able to work it out for themselves :-X
If you can't buy a lhd Holden derivative then your options remain the same... import or buy local.
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Actually, you inferred it.
I don't always have time or inclination to write verbose prose that I might explain every nuance of the thought process, but rather presume that the reader might actually be able to work it out for themselves :-X
If you can't buy a lhd Holden derivative then your options remain the same... import or buy local.
I actually did not. It's clear you have misinterpreted what I'm saying. That is even more clear by your suggestion of buying a Holden now, when I actually made a point that the problem will become even worse because Holden is stopping making the Commodore. That should be a clear indication that I'm not worried about the present but the future.
So what buying a Holden in the present does to solve problems of the future is beyond me. If that was the point, why just limited yourself to Holden or even cars of the present? By your logic, just secure your future by buying a 1968 RWD, manual 4 door saloon. ::)
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You can futureproof your concern buy buying a new one now.
Not a new concept... Several UK police forces bulk ordered the Omega when cessation of production was announced. Like I suggested, if you don't like it either accept it as a sad fact of progress or do something about it.
Mourning the death of rwd saloons last made 14 years ago now is about 14 years to late.
And whilst we're on the subject, badge snobbery is the only thing keeping people from the current crop of rear wheel drive options :-X
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Someone posted on here a while ago about Japanese and Korean brands entering the premium market , Toyota have Lexus, Nissan I think infinity? And how some omega owners rebadged the cars as VX/Opel or Holden to standout and bring an exclusive feel to the car in various countries.
My idea was based on a simple thought, GM has the resources and company's under its control to make a premium brand topping executive express.
Useing a Holden commodore chassis (RWD) and the same 6.2 V8 as the VXR8 would reduce costs and allow VX to use one basic package to develop its express.
Add a 7 speed automatic gearbox to increase refinement and cut in car noise will also aid economy and increase mpg figures due to low revs and good tourq while making the cars performance less apparent.
the cabin with 4 heated and cooled leather seats, deep carpets and lashings of chrome and wood while externally adding a discreet body kit with elite branding rather than VX and you'd have the VXR8 topping the VXR range and the elite, close in performance topping the normal VX range with the exclusive advantange of having enough kit that the thinking executive may just want one?
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In fairness I was never aiming for an argument, I have people I can see for that, I was suggesting VX could make a proper executive express to compete with the German premium brands.
I useded the Holden comadore as an example as most executives expresses are RWD and it's far cheaper than development of a brand new RWD chassis.
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I have to say I hope against all this technology and green efficany people will take there TR4s And every other cherished petrol powered cars to shows, looking at the thread I can't help thinking of writing to VX though, even with the invertible reply "no" just to say I've tried.
Are self driving electric cars any better?
Look at the crashes so far and we're the green energy comes from to power the cars of tomorrow, not to mention the issues with recycling them and safety concerning the battery life if such cars .
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You can futureproof your concern buy buying a new one now.
Not a new concept... Several UK police forces bulk ordered the Omega when cessation of production was announced. Like I suggested, if you don't like it either accept it as a sad fact of progress or do something about it.
Mourning the death of rwd saloons last made 14 years ago now is about 14 years to late.
And whilst we're on the subject, badge snobbery is the only thing keeping people from the current crop of rear wheel drive options :-X
Like I said, it's clear you are not understanding what I'm saying.
It's not only about me. I'm talking about the big picture. The future. It is sad this type of car is disappearing and it's clear I'm not the only one who thinks that.
But even buying a HSV now, it will not last forever. At some point it will need replacement. This is not a solution anyhow.
I'm not mourning the death of the Omega if that is what you mean when you say I'm mourning the death of rwd saloons last made 14 years ago. I'm speaking of the death of 4 door RWD saloons in general, specially with a manual transmission.
I don't see any badge snobbery keeping people from the current crop of rear wheel drive options. There are just not many options. And if you want a manual transmission, we are about to hit zero options, which is what started me on this actually.
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We will see driverless car swamping the roads in our lifetime. This is apparently the future. Manufacturers are concentrating their R&D on this kind of shite and have no interest making cars for enthusiasts who actually enjoy the experience of driving their products.
We are the last generation of humans who have the freedom to get in our cars and drive them how we want, albeit possibly suffering the legal consequences if we are caught breaking the rules.
Meanwhile, the news today said the speed limit on the M1 is being cut to 60mph in the name of saving the polar bears or some other such nonsense.
Expect the rest of the motorway network to follow suit in the foreseeable future.
The future is bleak I'm afraid.
It's crazy old world. Before 1967 there were no speed limits on the motorways and magazines such as Motor and Autocar would speed test E-Types and the like on the M1.
The 70 MPH limit was fine for Austin 1100 and Ford Anglia drivers in the sixties, but 70 MPH feels so slow in 2017 when even horrid derv-drinking repmobiles can top 140 MPH.
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Rabbiting on about the VP Senator Grange/SS platform... and saying that it's shame that you can't build a car to meet two different criteria.
Clearly it was a successful philosophy and, for now at least, still in place.
However times change, either accept it and move on, or do something about it. Simples.
At the end of the day, the demands of the buying public dictates that reasonably priced, large rwd saloons are a very niche market, and no amount of sepia shading is going to change that. Never has and never will.
HSV is a badge engineering exercise run by Holden in the same way that VXR and OPC are for Vauxhall and Opel respectively, rather than a separate range.
I'll stop there, as this will turn into another incited rant :-X
As far as I know HSV is actually independently owned. Holden has/had a part in it. But as far as I know it is still independently owned. Not like VXR/OPC or AMG and BMW M.
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Someone posted on here a while ago about Japanese and Korean brands entering the premium market , Toyota have Lexus, Nissan I think infinity? And how some omega owners rebadged the cars as VX/Opel or Holden to standout and bring an exclusive feel to the car in various countries.
My idea was based on a simple thought, GM has the resources and company's under its control to make a premium brand topping executive express.
Useing a Holden commodore chassis (RWD) and the same 6.2 V8 as the VXR8 would reduce costs and allow VX to use one basic package to develop its express.
Add a 7 speed automatic gearbox to increase refinement and cut in car noise will also aid economy and increase mpg figures due to low revs and good tourq while making the cars performance less apparent.
the cabin with 4 heated and cooled leather seats, deep carpets and lashings of chrome and wood while externally adding a discreet body kit with elite branding rather than VX and you'd have the VXR8 topping the VXR range and the elite, close in performance topping the normal VX range with the exclusive advantange of having enough kit that the thinking executive may just want one?
I think you are referring to my post of a few days or possibly weeks ago.
I also brought up the same idea of Opel starting a "premium brand". I think it could work. The only part we are disagreeing is on the automatic transmission. Most of the luxury or larger RWD saloons we still have now are automatic already. What we have basically none are manuals. So it would be fine if it was automatic, as long as there was a manual option as well.
But if done right, a premium Opel/Vauxhall badge could work. But it can't be just rebadged Opels/Vauxhall with some added chrome trim. It would have to be significantly different form Opels/Vauxhalls in the way some Lexus and Infinities are. Or people will still look down at it. Just look at what people think of HSV, which to the contrary of what many think is actually independently owned. But people still look at them as Holden. And HSV fans have been asking HSV to make their cars more different than the Holdens for a long time. It is only now with the latest cars that they are starting to look different enough. So an premium Opel/Vauxhall can't be just a badge. It has to be fully new or considerably new sheet metal, different drive train etc.
The post Omega Holden RWD platform is basically the Camaro platform. That platform could definitely be used. Make a luxury model, a performance model and even an estate model. Make it look good, drive well and finish it properly. No cheap cheesy interiors. They have a chance.
Opel cars are not bad. The problem is perception. It is also not fair to compare a Mercedes A or BMW 2 with the equivalent Opel. If Opel could charge as much as them, the car would be better too. This is why they need a premium badge, so they can charge more than Opel/Vauxhalls and build the cars better.
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I'm inclined to agree and it was your comments about the Japanese and Korean brands that really got me thinking.
My thoughts are that by keeping the body of the Holden similar, same panels, maybe different lights and body kit to current models the car will externally show it's family roots and keep the costs of production down.
New tooling is massively expensive and would probably stop the project as the amount of units sold wouldn't justify the costs of development per year.
Add an impressive spec,
4 Heated and cooled leather seats with 3 memory settings, heated steering wheel and gear selector, night vision, adaptive cruse control, rain sensing wipers, radar parking, touch screen satellite navigation, head up display, in built communication centres for all four seats, front seat headrest monitors for internet, DVD/CD or radio.
The xenon lamps with beam levelling and LED rear lights adding safety to night with automatic cornering and dimming technology like the new Astra.
Auto dimming mirrors and onstar all wrapped in soft touch materials, leather dashboard with cchromed switches, keyless entry and high gloss wood or chrome trim.
Propelled along by a 6.2 V8 with 500hp and a 7 speed automatic gearbox with traction control and 4pot callipers all round in silver with ABD and EBD.
Maybe a self parking option, sun blind ?
These are just my thoughts but add a different steering wheel design and I think it would stand a chance sold at £60,000 especially when the options list could be reduced to wheel styles and sizes and colour combinations of leather and external paint ?
In my view the premium Germans brands would struggle to spec a similar size car with this amount of kit.
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I'm inclined to agree and it was your comments about the Japanese and Korean brands that really got me thinking.
My thoughts are that by keeping the body of the Holden similar, same panels, maybe different lights and body kit to current models the car will externally show it's family roots and keep the costs of production down.
New tooling is massively expensive and would probably stop the project as the amount of units sold wouldn't justify the costs of development per year.
Add an impressive spec,
4 Heated and cooled leather seats with 3 memory settings, heated steering wheel and gear selector, night vision, adaptive cruse control, rain sensing wipers, radar parking, touch screen satellite navigation, head up display, in built communication centres for all four seats, front seat headrest monitors for internet, DVD/CD or radio.
The xenon lamps with beam levelling and LED rear lights adding safety to night with automatic cornering and dimming technology like the new Astra.
Auto dimming mirrors and onstar all wrapped in soft touch materials, leather dashboard with cchromed switches, keyless entry and high gloss wood or chrome trim.
Propelled along by a 6.2 V8 with 500hp and a 7 speed automatic gearbox with traction control and 4pot callipers all round in silver with ABD and EBD.
Maybe a self parking option, sun blind ?
These are just my thoughts but add a different steering wheel design and I think it would stand a chance sold at £60,000 especially when the options list could be reduced to wheel styles and sizes and colour combinations of leather and external paint ?
In my view the premium Germans brands would struggle to spec a similar size car with this amount of kit.
Well that would basically be a VXR8 then, right? Unless I misunderstood you. Or rather a luxury VXR8. And isn't the VXR8 already priced at £55,000-60,000?
I'm not sure what reputation or image the current VXR8 has in the UK or if using a VXR8 for the new premium badge would have any negative effect on the new badge. But at least in continental Europe that would not be a problem as no Holden was ever sold here. Here it would be new.
I agree that using the Holden complete car with some alterations would be the cheaper way to go. I just don't see that happening at this point. Maybe importing the Cadillac RWD and significantly changing the front and rear fascias and giving it an European interior?
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Sorry, I laughed so much at that last statement that some wee came out :-[
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I'm thinking the VXR8 is already here and a facelifted version of that could pass type approval far easier than any US variant of the same chassis?
One thing I'd like to remind people reading this is that Lexus only sold the LS400 for years and look we're they are now, ok I don't like the styling, straight lines and slashes but maybe a glimpse of what might be ?
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I'm thinking the VXR8 is already here and a facelifted version of that could pass type approval far easier than any US variant of the same chassis?
One thing I'd like to remind people reading this is that Lexus only sold the LS400 for years and look we're they are now, ok I don't like the styling, straight lines and slashes but maybe a glimpse of what might be ?
Yes, like I said I agree that basing it on the Holden would make all things easier. The thing is the decision to kill it was already made and knowing how big corporations work I don't see they reversing that at this point.
And a premium Opel/Vauxhall badge is definitely a valid idea if done right. :y
If they would not want to have anything to do with a RWD, what would you think of an AWD for the premium badge? I just today found out about a nice AWD car for sale and I have to say after I started thinking, AWD also has a lot going for it. It will not be as fun as RWD. But for a big saloon it is a good thing and AWD fits right in with the premium concept. It would also be way more feasible since Opel already has the platform currently in production.
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I do wish you'd do some research before you spouted forth... some more wee has escaped ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
http://www.buick.com/
Particularly...
http://www.buick.com/sedans/lacrosse-full-size-luxury-sedan.htmlhttp://www.buick.com/sedans/lacrosse-full-size-luxury-sedan.html
Of course if you want rhd, it's available here and now and is known as the Vauxhall Insignia... ::)
;D ;D ;D
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A luxury executive express built on the insignia platform is called the elite and does a good job of propelling managers around all day in comfort yes, trying to compete with cars from the size above when you've got the smallest cabin in the class and half the tech isn't going to be an easy sell.
I was looking at the VXR8 as the cabin is the largest in the GM car range if I understand correctly, the V8 would deliver loads of lazy power and I think a really nice job could be made of it.
4x4 isn't something I'd really thought about but could be considered although what platform are you thinking of using?
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If GM were willing to develop a V8 insignia that would be an interesting concept, built as a proper executive express and only with 7 speed maybe 4x4?
automatic transmission so as not to compete with the VXR?
Full of kit discussed previously it may work but the V8 would intrude on the floor pan making it smaller and less cabin space for people?
Question is would it work, Audi RS4 rival or more subtle because you don't want to compromise VXR sales?
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I do wish you'd do some research before you spouted forth... some more wee has escaped ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
http://www.buick.com/
Particularly...
http://www.buick.com/sedans/lacrosse-full-size-luxury-sedan.htmlhttp://www.buick.com/sedans/lacrosse-full-size-luxury-sedan.html
Of course if you want rhd, it's available here and now and is known as the Vauxhall Insignia... ::)
;D ;D ;D
LOL! I do wish you would stop butting in other people's conversation with your obnoxious posts. Especially if you are going to just talk BS. What in the world are you talking about? There is also an Insignia here. It's an Opel after all. And it's also available in AWD. Here, yes, in LHD. But it is still an Opel/Vauxhall, which is not the point of having a premium badge. A possible premium badge Opel/Vauxhall AWD car could well use the same Epsilon II platform of the Insignia. But it can't be just an Insignia. Anyway, sometimes I wonder if you drink, or what is your problem.
It's obvious you are a heavy weight troll and desperately attempts to stirs things up everywhere I post. In many forums this is enough to get a ban. But you know what, I will just throw you in my ignore bin with the others. So from now on I will no longer see your posts. It used to be that when you seemed to be sober, you posted some interesting things. But the trolling is outweighing everything as of lately. If your intention is to try to drive me away, you are failing miserably and will continue to do so.
It's hard to believe I was being accused of being a troll while you get away with this infantile little crusade of yours chasing every single post I make to troll. Well, no more. So have fun being obnoxious and a troll.
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A luxury executive express built on the insignia platform is called the elite and does a good job of propelling managers around all day in comfort yes, trying to compete with cars from the size above when you've got the smallest cabin in the class and half the tech isn't going to be an easy sell.
I was looking at the VXR8 as the cabin is the largest in the GM car range if I understand correctly, the V8 would deliver loads of lazy power and I think a really nice job could be made of it.
4x4 isn't something I'd really thought about but could be considered although what platform are you thinking of using?
Like I was saying, the premium car would have to be considerably different from a normal Opel to be taken seriously. They could use the Epsilon II platform as a base. But it doesn't mean it would have to be based on the Insignia. Could be a modified longer wheel base version of the platform. This is what Holden did to the Omega platform to make the VT Commodore and its successors. Made it longer and wider. But at least with AWD there is a currently in production local platform to work from. It's also clear they are more interested in AWD across the board. So may be a more realistic thing to expect over a RWD.
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If GM were willing to develop a V8 insignia that would be an interesting concept, built as a proper executive express and only with 7 speed maybe 4x4?
automatic transmission so as not to compete with the VXR?
Full of kit discussed previously it may work but the V8 would intrude on the floor pan making it smaller and less cabin space for people?
Question is would it work, Audi RS4 rival or more subtle because you don't want to compromise VXR sales?
When you say compete with the VXR, do you mean the VXR8 or are you talking about the VXR branch in general? Because like I mentioned before, they don't need to worry about competing with the VXR8. It will only be around till around fall. The VXR8 is EOL. It is being discontinued with all the other Commodore variants. ;)
If they use a modified version of the Insignia platform, I'm sure a V8 could be made to fit. This is what Holden did to fit a V8 to the Omega platform. Modified it.
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Time to debunk a few myths...
Firstly, The Elite is a model within the Insignia range, not a stand alone product.
Secondly, the VXR8 is exactly the same length as the Insignia, the perceived difference stems from the fact that the chassis is wider.
Thirdly, you won't get an LSx engine anywhere within the front of the Insignia.
Fourthly, Buick is pitched as a premium brand using rebadged European models, including two variations of the Insignia platform. You will also note that half its product line are SUVs.
Finally, HSV is owned by both Holden and Walkinshaw Racing and was established to develop Holden as a motorsport contender in the late 80's. The VXR8 is a rebadged HSV R8, which in turn a Holden VE/F Commodore SS that has been driven through the Australian equivalent of Halfords.
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As for trolling... Utter pish.
My Grandparents and their parents gave everything to presrve the concept of certain freedoms, including free speech. So I reserve as much right to disagree with your views, and comment on those views, as you have to hold and express them yourself. :-*
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My thought was that VXR is VXs sports brand and the premium brand would compliment that, not compete aganst it. VXR is all about pure performance and the premium branded car is all about comfort opulent soroundings, with the ability to exploit the V8 if it has to do so.
As for the insignia platform, I was aiming for the class above as other than the VXR8 VX has nothing in that class, by its very nature the insignia is everywre as a popular company car.
One thing no one wants is VX to develop a £50-60,000 car that looks exactly like a standard insignia.
If the VXR8 and insignia are the same length, would GM widen the platform as a base for a new HSV performance car?
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My thought was that VXR is VXs sports brand and the premium brand would compliment that, not compete aganst it. VXR is all about pure performance and the premium branded car is all about comfort opulent soroundings, with the ability to exploit the V8 if it has to do so.
As for the insignia platform, I was aiming for the class above as other than the VXR8 VX has nothing in that class, by its very nature the insignia is everywre as a popular company car.
One thing no one wants is VX to develop a £50-60,000 car that looks exactly like a standard insignia.
If the VXR8 and insignia are the same length, would GM widen the platform as a base for a new HSV performance car?
VXR is to Vauxhall what OPC is to Opel. Over here people still see OPC as just an Opel. Just a more expensive one, or to some a more chaved up Opel. Is VXR perceived as something special as of lately in the UK?
If the premium brand is to be done right, people will have to be able to forget/overlook/not know it is a Vauxhall all together. This is the point. So I disagree it should complement VXR. It should be its own thing. VXR is "just" Vauxhall. The point of the premium brand is to distance itself from Vauxhall so it can sell cars for more money and for that reason, better cars. Exactly the same as Acura, Infinity and Lexus. If it will be its own thing I don't think it would compete with VXR, even if it also offered performance models. Because they would have to be performance-luxury and VXR is not luxury or premium. So in my opinion it wouldn't compete with VXR. But I see your point.
I agree with you that nobody wants an expensive car that looks exactly like a standard insignia. This is not what I meant. Using the same platform doesn't mean looking like it. They don't even have to use the Insignia. It would be just more feasible to happen since it's the largest current made Opel platform. But they could as well use the Alpha platform or even build an entirely new one. There are all sorts of possibilities. But the more complex and expensive, the less likely it is for them to do it. To be honest, I don't see them doing it at all. But it's fun to ponder and discuss it. :)
But one thing is for sure. If they would of do it, I think it would be better to be a single brand for the whole of Europe. Not a separated names for UK and Continental Europe.
From the information that is out so far, it's looking like the new Holden Commodore will be just a rebadged new shape Insignia. To be honest I don't think Holden will do anything to it, as they didn't with the other imported Opels they have had. They just stuck a Holden badge on them.
As for the HSV versions, it will be interesting to see what they come up with. There are people who fear for HSV's demise. Regardless, I'm sure they will focus only on the AWD versions. So maybe Commodores will be all FWD and the AWD versions will be reserved for HSV to help differentiate it. But probably not. Who knows. The thing is HSV has to do a lot if they want to stand out. Because the OPC/VXR Insignia is already enhanced. So for HSV to really make it better they have to be serious about it. If they would go all out and put a V8 in it, it would only make it easier for a Vauxhall/Opel premium brand to do the same by using the platform. But that would cost a lot more. Or they may choose to break with HSV tradition of large displacements and go V6 twin turbo or something. But then the question is, is there a real need for HSV if they can't be HSV? Or is Holden better off just importing VXR Insignias? It's all too early to tell and nobody but Holden and HSV know at this point. ;)
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In my opinion VXRs fall into different categories, corsa and Astra maybe Chavy but insignia and VXR8 are recognised as a bit different.
I was cultivating the idea that VX could have a premium brand as well as the VXR performance brand, I came up with elite and used the VXR8 platform as examples of how the car could be marketed.
Trying to sell an up market insignia would be a waist of time and money but the idea of useing different bodywork and far more kit with a different badge would put the car in a place above the standard VX and put distance between the brands?
Ideally the luxury car should match the power of the VXR sports brand but have power in reserve rather than be telling everyone wha it's about.
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Here's one they made earlier...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_XTS
Won't happen as long as I have a hole in my arse :'(
Oh and it's wwd ::)
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Trying to sell an up market insignia would be a waist of time and money but the idea of useing different bodywork and far more kit with a different badge would put the car in a place above the standard VX and put distance between the brands?
That's exactly what they tried with the last Saab: it's not obviously Insignia based until you park them side by side and compare them closely. Even using an established and well regarded brand wasn't enough: we all know how that experiment ended.
As an Insignia is already bigger than an Omega and engineered for a transverse engine, a bigger RWD V8 would be forced into the tiny and niche S-class/7 series/XJ market. And GM are never going to create an orphan platform for just a few thousand sales(if they're lucky!) each year. The big RWD Fords were deleted for the same reasons. Those other manufacturers use RWD in their other models, and share the parts with them: the 7 and 5 series have been basically the same car for generations.
Lexus succeded because many of the expensive parts were designed to be shared with other vehicles: the V8 was used in their big 4x4s, and the straight sixes were already in use. They also managed to launch a developed at any cost Mercedes competitor at the time MB were publicly going the other way. Honda and Nissan's attempts to do the same have hardly been a success, have you even seen an Infiniti or Legend outside of a showroom?
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Here's one they made earlier...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_XTS
Won't happen as long as I have a hole in my arse :'(
Oh and it's wwd ::)
Good cause it`s as ugly as sin :o
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In my opinion VXRs fall into different categories, corsa and Astra maybe Chavy but insignia and VXR8 are recognised as a bit different.
I was cultivating the idea that VX could have a premium brand as well as the VXR performance brand, I came up with elite and used the VXR8 platform as examples of how the car could be marketed.
Trying to sell an up market insignia would be a waist of time and money but the idea of useing different bodywork and far more kit with a different badge would put the car in a place above the standard VX and put distance between the brands?
Ideally the luxury car should match the power of the VXR sports brand but have power in reserve rather than be telling everyone wha it's about.
Is VXR really a separate badge? Like, do VXR cars say only VXR in the registration or do they say Vauxhall VXR? I'm not close with anybody who actually owns an OPC, but I'm pretty sure it says Opel Astra OPC or something. OPC not being the brand but more a trim or series.
Like I already said, I completely agree with you on the Insignia. :y
It would have to be something that would be different enough. Look for example at the current Camaro and the current Cadillac CTS. Both use the Alpha platform. But it's hard to say they have a whole lot in common from a consumer's point of view. I very much doubt any trim of the Cadillac would drive anything like a ZL1. So a platform is just a foundation. It doesn't have to be like an Insignia, as long as they don't cheap out.
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Trying to sell an up market insignia would be a waist of time and money but the idea of useing different bodywork and far more kit with a different badge would put the car in a place above the standard VX and put distance between the brands?
That's exactly what they tried with the last Saab: it's not obviously Insignia based until you park them side by side and compare them closely. Even using an established and well regarded brand wasn't enough: we all know how that experiment ended.
As an Insignia is already bigger than an Omega and engineered for a transverse engine, a bigger RWD V8 would be forced into the tiny and niche S-class/7 series/XJ market. And GM are never going to create an orphan platform for just a few thousand sales(if they're lucky!) each year. The big RWD Fords were deleted for the same reasons. Those other manufacturers use RWD in their other models, and share the parts with them: the 7 and 5 series have been basically the same car for generations.
Lexus succeded because many of the expensive parts were designed to be shared with other vehicles: the V8 was used in their big 4x4s, and the straight sixes were already in use. They also managed to launch a developed at any cost Mercedes competitor at the time MB were publicly going the other way. Honda and Nissan's attempts to do the same have hardly been a success, have you even seen an Infiniti or Legend outside of a showroom?
Talking from an UK perspective right? In the U.S., the largest car market in the world, both Acura and Infinity are successful. :y
I know the proposed brand we are discussing would have to compete in the European market. But Honda and Nissan being Japanese are in a very big disadvantage before they even begin to compete in Europe. The only snobbery stronger than that against popular European cars is the one against Japanese and Korean cars. So Opel would be starting from a place of more acceptance already. ;)
As for the Saab 9-5, it had quite a few problems before we even start to look at the Epsilon platform. It was developed and released during a time Saab was a mess and about to be shut down. They definitely not only rushed it out but cheaped out as well. Have you driven one? I have. Because I really like the way it looks. But when you get behind the wheel it just scares any good impressions the looks may have had on you away. I was seriously considering buying one till I drove it. I don't think it's fair to blame it all on being based on the Insignia. The Insignia is actually better than it in most ways besides the external looks IMO.
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Talking from an UK perspective right? In the U.S., the largest car market in the world, both Acura and Infinity are successful. :y
I know the proposed brand we are discussing would have to compete in the European market. But Honda and Nissan being Japanese are in a very big disadvantage before they even begin to compete in Europe. The only snobbery stronger than that against popular European cars is the one against Japanese and Korean cars. So Opel would be starting from a place of more acceptance already. ;)
UK, yes.
But Honda and Nissan were hardly unsuccessful in America before they created 'new' brands.
And as for snobbery against Asian cars in favour of European ones, you ARE joking? Toyota/Nissan/Honda in a car-as-white-goods/wake-me-up-for-the=test-drive/dull-dull-dull sort of way are mass market cars, and Hyundai and Kia's market share is increasing year after year. Fiat has long been a joke in the UK, and the French manufacturer's share is fading fast.
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Talking from an UK perspective right? In the U.S., the largest car market in the world, both Acura and Infinity are successful. :y
I know the proposed brand we are discussing would have to compete in the European market. But Honda and Nissan being Japanese are in a very big disadvantage before they even begin to compete in Europe. The only snobbery stronger than that against popular European cars is the one against Japanese and Korean cars. So Opel would be starting from a place of more acceptance already. ;)
UK, yes.
But Honda and Nissan were hardly unsuccessful in America before they created 'new' brands.
And as for snobbery against Asian cars in favour of European ones, you ARE joking? Toyota/Nissan/Honda in a car-as-white-goods/wake-me-up-for-the=test-drive/dull-dull-dull sort of way are mass market cars, and Hyundai and Kia's market share is increasing year after year. Fiat has long been a joke in the UK, and the French manufacturer's share is fading fast.
I'm talking about continental Europe. They never managed to make a dent here to the point of Toyota giving up in trying to make Lexus work here.The UK has the advantage of being RHD like Japan. That certainly helps.
Kia and Hyundai market share is increasing here too. Mainly because of the 7 years warranty and the cheap price. But the same is happening to Dacia for example. I see more and more of them on the road. But they are not premium. Nobody here sees any Japanese cars as a serious alternative to Mercedes, BMW, Audi or even VW.
As for French cars, here the joke is, they already start rusting on the brochures. ;D
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Considering the correct side of the road, I would wager there are more lefthand drive cars in Japan than there are righthand drive cars on the Iberian peninsula ::)
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So reinstate the 100,000 mile warranty to the whole VX range and launch a car in the executive class, with a standard kit as mentions above and we are on the right track?
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So reinstate the 100,000 mile warranty to the whole VX range and launch a car in the executive class, with a standard kit as mentions above and we are on the right track?
I think it will take more than that to shake the snobbery concerning Vauxhall out of people's minds.
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Yes but you need to start somewhere and saying your product is reliable is a good start and VX have done this before
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Yes but you need to start somewhere and saying your product is reliable is a good start and VX have done this before
But it doesn't look like it did much for them though, right? Maybe the reason they stopped?
Offering a longer warranty may have helped the Koren brands to increase their market share. But that doesn't help them in being looked at as premium badges, which is the goal here, correct? It helps them to sell more cars. Vauxhall already sell plenty. This is not the problem. But the longer warranty won't make people pay BMW-ish money for a Kia. But this is what we need a premium Opel/Vauxhall brand for. So they can sell the cars for more than they can an Opel/Vauxhall. If they can get more money for the cars they can make them better. A longer warranty won't really help much here. I think it should be there. But it's not even scratching the surface towards the main goal IMO. ;)
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If you sold the new product for £50,000, loaded with luxury and plush finishes and the technology to make it appealing with a 100,000 mile warranty I would hope it would at least get a second look from any BMW, Audi or Mercedes customer?
Clearly not badged as VX or Opel it would stand out?
Maybe fase out the Opel name and sell VX throughout Europe and slowly reintroduce the Opel as the high end brand?
If memory serves, Opel a precious stone?
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;D
Opal is a stone, Opel is, or rather was, a man.
The only reason the Vauxhall brand exists, and I mean only given all the products are either European or Global, is that GM management are worried that they would lose their market share if we all became Opel.
Don't believe me? Ask yourself why Chevrolet was pulled in the UK ::)
Buick could work as a global premium brand... but consider that the new Insignia is already a rebranded Buick LaCrosse, so that's not going to work, and expect to be sorely disappointed when the 3.6 version doesn't get sold in Europe.
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If you sold the new product for £50,000, loaded with luxury and plush finishes and the technology to make it appealing with a 100,000 mile warranty I would hope it would at least get a second look from any BMW, Audi or Mercedes customer?
Clearly not badged as VX or Opel it would stand out?
Maybe fase out the Opel name and sell VX throughout Europe and slowly reintroduce the Opel as the high end brand?
If memory serves, Opel a precious stone?
If the new product wore the proposed premium badge and would be worthy of it's badge, then certainly 100,000 miles warranty would be very welcome and a great addition to the package. All I was saying is the extra warranty alone wouldn't do much to change the perception about Vauxhalls, as it didn't. ;)
About discontinuing the Opel name and keeping Vauxhall, that will never happen. Easier to happen the other way around. Although supposedly they tried it in the UK and Opel didn't fair very well there. Reason they kept it Vauxhall. But no chance of killing the Opel name in Europe. No chance at all. Too much of a following. It would be like killing the VW name. Will never happen.
Using the Opel name as the premium badge won't work either. Too much history. It needs to be a brand new badge, since GM just doesn't have any brands under it's umbrella which could do the job in Europe. When Cadillac, which is their top premium badge doesn't have what it takes to do the job, no other current GM badge can. Buick is just Cadillac for different people and cheaper. Chevrolet is the mass market badge. Holden will link back to Australia where it is basically Vauxhall. With the internet info travels. Even the now dead badges like Oldsmobile and Pontiac wouldn't cut it. It needs to be European, even if Opel/Vauxhall is American owned. It needs to be European in essence. It doesn't matter who owns it. Look at Land Rover and Jaguar which are now owned by an Indian company. For the general public is still British. This is what counts. They buy it because they see it as a premium European brand.
The new premium brand will need to be European to be successful in Europe and GM has none now. So it needs to be new. ;)
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Any ideas on a name, I was thinking Elite as the first top spec omegas were, Opel as in the jewel but I get the point and yes, GM Europe were trying to sell both VX and opels through the one dealer network in the early 1980s? Possibly to fase out VX and thankfully it failed!
Eather way we are looking at the thinking executives car here, Vauxhalls Lexus before they started making ugly cars 😋
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GM Europe have no interest whatsoever in becoming involved, again, in the luxury car market, so it aint going to happen.
The thinking used to be that they needed to have flagship models, often sold at a loss, to give the brand some credibility, and help sell cars lower down the model range.
Some brave accountant decided that this actually wasn't necessary at all, and that they could never really knock Mercedes/ /BMWetc of their perches, and he has been proved right.
R&D money is now dedicated to cars which don't use fossil fuel, and eventually don't have drivers, rather than something which weighs 2 tonnes and uses a gallon of fuel every 23 miles, but has really comfy seats.
It really isn't going to happen. Ever.
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When you say ever, do you mean never ever, or just ever?
I ask because if there is so much as a glimmer of hope, then there is no possibility of these nonsensical debates from ever ending. Ever...
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When you say ever, do you mean never ever, or just ever?
I ask because if there is so much as a glimmer of hope, then there is no possibility of these nonsensical debates from ever ending. Ever...
;D
I'm not sure what makes you think that the total absence of hope will change anything.
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Any ideas on a name, I was thinking Elite as the first top spec omegas were, Opel as in the jewel but I get the point and yes, GM Europe were trying to sell both VX and opels through the one dealer network in the early 1980s? Possibly to fase out VX and thankfully it failed!
Eather way we are looking at the thinking executives car here, Vauxhalls Lexus before they started making ugly cars 😋
I'm not too big on Elite. First it's too obvious. An "elite" badge called elite? Second it has too strong of a connection to Vauxhall. We want to make people forget Vauxhall, right? ;)
So I think it would need to be more creative than that. :)
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GM Europe have no interest whatsoever in becoming involved, again, in the luxury car market, so it aint going to happen.
The thinking used to be that they needed to have flagship models, often sold at a loss, to give the brand some credibility, and help sell cars lower down the model range.
Some brave accountant decided that this actually wasn't necessary at all, and that they could never really knock Mercedes/ /BMWetc of their perches, and he has been proved right.
R&D money is now dedicated to cars which don't use fossil fuel, and eventually don't have drivers, rather than something which weighs 2 tonnes and uses a gallon of fuel every 23 miles, but has really comfy seats.
It really isn't going to happen. Ever.
Yep. Like I said myself, I doubt it will ever happen. But it's still fun to chat about it. :)
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When you say ever, do you mean never ever, or just ever?
I ask because if there is so much as a glimmer of hope, then there is no possibility of these nonsensical debates from ever ending. Ever...
;D
I'm not sure what makes you think that the total absence of hope will change anything.
Hmmm, I'm not sure where the debate is really. ::)
Pmacca2000 and I are merely having a nice chat about a subject we both seem to like, cars. All that, in a car forum too. So I'm not seeing anything out of place here. :)
So I would agree with you. The absence of hope wont change anything. We will keep enjoying talking about it. ;)
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In fairness anv6 and i are enjoying talking about brand development and while VX have no intention of developing an upmarket brand it's interesting to develop the idea and see were it goes, especially if things change and VX could theoretically use some of our ideas?
Any ideas on a name?
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When you say ever, do you mean never ever, or just ever?
I ask because if there is so much as a glimmer of hope, then there is no possibility of these nonsensical debates from ever ending. Ever...
;D
I'm not sure what makes you think that the total absence of hope will change anything.
Ho humph... off to start a classic bus tyre thread :D
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In fairness anv6 and i are enjoying talking about brand development and while VX have no intention of developing an upmarket brand it's interesting to develop the idea and see were it goes, especially if things change and VX could theoretically use some of our ideas?
Any ideas on a name?
Not really. That's a difficult one. One of those things that will take a commit several meetings to decide and then choose something bad. ;D
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Well as long as its classy, I was thinking GM Aero?
Saab used aero but this doesn't seem to be widely known?
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How about limited or exclusive as a name?
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Aero is/was a Saab sport trim level... common as mud.
Limited is a Dodge/Chrysler trim level.
Exclusive started as a Base+1 model Vectra C trim level, and was carried onto the Insignia as the same poverty spec with alloys.
Might as call it Merit or Unicorn ::)
Buick would be a contender, but with the new Insignia, this is already a rebadged Buick, so that won't work either ;D
All in all a complete waste of internet space even discussing it.
Incidentally this is the meaning of Insignia...
insignia /ɪnˈsɪɡnɪə/
noun noun: insignia; plural noun: insignia; plural noun: insignias a distinguishing badge or emblem of military rank, office, or membership of an organization. "a khaki uniform with colonel's insignia on the collar" synonyms: badge, crest, emblem, symbol, sign, device, mark, seal, colours; More decoration, medal, medallion, pin, ribbon, star, award; military slang fruit salad; informal gong "his tunic bore the insignia of the Légion d'Honneur" a sign or token of something. "the ruins are devoid of moss and ivy, the romantic insignia of age and decay"
GM are so stuck for names that they resorted to calling their primary european model "Badge" ;D
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Fair point about limited, I understand it was a Monterey trim level too, elite was used by lotus before VX and as I recall and GM have stopped production of its Volt and ampera so how long before consistently reliable and intelligent self driving cars are around for the masses?
Maybe worth thinking about before righting this thread off completely?
Europa was a lotus name but fits in with every model ending in a and it's not used by lotus now?
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Don't forget the naming rule: the better the name sounds, the shittier the car you stick it on. Vauxhalls badged as Merit had none, Fiestas etc badged as Popular weren't, and the Metro City X selling point was a sunvisor for the passenger :o
Now you know why the premium the marketing wank is strong with this one German brands use impenetrable codes rather than names; can you imagine what they would come up with?
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As multiple manufactures use names would elite be such a bad thing? How about avora ?
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As multiple manufactures use names would elite be such a bad thing? How about avora ?
.
Wasn't that the name of Suet Pudding many years ago ?
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I hate to say the words before my time but.......
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Well as long as its classy, I was thinking GM Aero?
Saab used aero but this doesn't seem to be widely known?
I think they should stay away from any names any GM brand has used, specially trim names. You don't want any buyers to think it's just a trim.
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How about limited or exclusive as a name?
Like I mentioned before I think this is trying too hard. Too in the face. You don't deem yourself special, exclusive or whatever. Others do. ;)
Self pumpering or bragging is the most un-classy thing in my view.
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As multiple manufactures use names would elite be such a bad thing? How about avora ?
The only way a name with strong association to GM could work would be if they had some mythical extinct brand from the past they could resurrect. Like when Bugatti was resurrect. Or even Maybach. Although that didn't work well for Mercedes, but for totally different reasons.
But GM doesn't have that. Their most prestigious brand has always been Cadillac and that is a no go in Europe. So they have to go a different direction and bring it as far away as they can from GM, Chevrolet, Vauxhall or Opel. So forget about all these GM trim names.
It's really not rocket science. It has been done before. It has a precedent. Lexus, Acura and Infinity. Just take a page out of the Japanese book. They have taken so many pages from the west car industry's book. It can be done. It has been done and something tells me the Koreans are about to repeat it, while GM, Ford and the French will be just watching with their trousers at their ankles, as usual.
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So Europa would be a posibilty?
I totally see we're your coming from and it does make sense.
It could be a real success story if VX did something about it.
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Yeah, naming a range topping brand after a plastic sports car makes perfect sense...
If you're a badger ;D
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This is a really funny thread , it will be girls names next.
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In the UK should it be sold as a Europa Brexita ? :D
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It don't recall any issues with the omega elite ?
clearly it depends on the name and how long ago it was used, maybe even the reputation the car or manufacturer who last used it had.
Barring in mind Lots Of Truble Usually Serious (lotus) used both elite and Europa I don't see a problem?
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In Australia the Omega is the base model Commodore...
Numbers work well...
The range topper could be 10, and the sporty version of it 11 ::)
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Actually, scratch that...
In Australia the Omega is the base model Commodore...
Numbers work well...
Using the tradional trim levels of L, GL, GLS, CD, CDX, Sport/SX, Elite and add in Exquisite and Platinum, give each a number from 1-9.
Models can be renamed too... Viva 1; Adam 2; Corsa 3; Meriva 4; Astra 5; Mokka 6; Zafira 7; Insignia 8; Cascada 9; Omega equivalent 10.
Decimal points being used to define the trim: .1 being the base designation and .9 being the highest. So a GLS would be 10.3, the Elite 10.7 and the Platinum 10.9.
Taking that one step further you could also define the engine in the same way... so a 2 litre 4 pot GLS could be 10.3204 and the 3.6 Platinum could 10.9366.
Works across the range... Base model Viva would be 1.1103. Base Astra would be 5.1144 and so on.
Room in the designation for a 10 model range, each with 9 trim levels and say a $4,000 spread between the base .1 trim and the .9 on any model. Make the specs identical across the board. And price the cars simply... say start the 1.1 at $5,000 and make each model $2,000 more expensive. This would effectively make the base 5.1(Astra) $13,000 with the 5.9 being $17,000. The range topper 10.1 would start at $23,000, with the 10.9 being $27,000.
Basic price would include the smallest current engine with a surcharge of $1 per cc, so a 1.3 would come as standard with the 1 litre 3 pot, but could be available with the 1.4 four pot, demanding a surcharge of $400. Auto box would be a $500 option where available for any given engine. Likewise four wheel drive.
Base engines being defined by the smallest engine available for any given model. The largest engine option for each model being the same, so the 1 might only be available with the 1.6 4 cylinder as its largest option.
Body styles would be hatch, saloon and estate. Five door hatch being standard. 3 door would be a $500 option, 4 door saloon would be an NCO, and estate would be a $500 option. For the 10 a two door coupe could be offered at a $2,000 premium.
Notable exceptions would see the 2 as a three door hatch only; the 1, 4, 6 and 7 as a five door hatch only; the 9 as a two door convertible only; and the 10 as a saloon, estate and coupe.
The Camaro, Corvette and Suburban derivatives would remain unaffected as they're effectively standalone models.
The crux being that globally anyone should have access to any model in any trim without penalty and the only options trim level, colour (body and interior), drivetrain and body style. No other options... if you want a 1 with heated memory nappa leather and touchscreen nav and xenons and the basic engine, then you buy a 1.9103 for $9,000. equally if you want a large family estate with a large engine, autobox and four wheeldrive on a budget then you would order a 10.1366 for $26,100... ($23,000 basic plus $1,600 to upgrade from the two litre four pot to the three.six v6, plus $500 for each of estate/auto/4x4.
The range topping car would be a 10.9366C 4x4 auto at $31,600.
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Al, how did you get hold of BMW's original model designation strategy? ;D
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;D It clearly makes far more sense than some of the drivel in this thread ::)
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;D It clearly makes far more sense than some of the drivel in this thread ::)
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I think some have put a lot of thought into this thread but got to agree utter drivel.
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So Europa would be a posibilty?
I totally see we're your coming from and it does make sense.
It could be a real success story if VX did something about it.
A bit too generic perhaps? Or rather bland? I wouldn't go with Europa. But keeping it in the Latin family of words may be a good start. Latin is sophisticated. Matches what a premium brand should be. :y
Just not Europa, IMO.
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In the UK should it be sold as a Europa Brexita ? :D
But...in or out of the E.U., all of the UK and Ireland are still part of Europe. So no need to change the name a bit, if they would ever go with that name. ;)
Or rather if they would ever do it at all. ;D
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It don't recall any issues with the omega elite ?
clearly it depends on the name and how long ago it was used, maybe even the reputation the car or manufacturer who last used it had.
Barring in mind Lots Of Truble Usually Serious (lotus) used both elite and Europa I don't see a problem?
I don't think the problem with Europa is that it has already been used. Rather that it's pretty meh really. Think about the commercial. "The new Europa 375 LS" or "The new Europa Elite". or whatever model name. Just doesn't have the ring it should have IMO.
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In the UK should it be sold as a Europa Brexita ? :D
But...in or out of the E.U., all of the UK and Ireland are still part of Europe. So no need to change the name a bit, if they would ever go with that name. ;)
Or rather if they would ever do it at all. ;D
That's a matter of opinion. As far as I'm concerned Britain is an island off the coast of Europe, and I'm definitely British and in no way European. ;)
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In the UK should it be sold as a Europa Brexita ? :D
But...in or out of the E.U., all of the UK and Ireland are still part of Europe. So no need to change the name a bit, if they would ever go with that name. ;)
Or rather if they would ever do it at all. ;D
That's a matter of opinion. As far as I'm concerned Britain is an island off the coast of Europe, and I'm definitely British and in no way European. ;)
Agreed, although I fear that your birth place will become part of Ireland rather than remain in the mainland. I will stop there :-X
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In the UK should it be sold as a Europa Brexita ? :D
But...in or out of the E.U., all of the UK and Ireland are still part of Europe. So no need to change the name a bit, if they would ever go with that name. ;)
Or rather if they would ever do it at all. ;D
That's a matter of opinion. As far as I'm concerned Britain is an island off the coast of Europe, and I'm definitely British and in no way European. ;)
Well, I'm sorry to disagree, but it's not a matter of opinion at all. ;)
That's like somebody from Texas saying he is a Texan and not an American or to be honest even somebody from Hawaii saying he is Hawaiian and not American. Or a Canadian saying he is Canadian and not North American.Or for that matter, a Scottish saying he is Scottish and not British. It's not a matter of opinion. It doesn't depend on what you or I think. It's something official. Politically and Geographically official. We don't get to make the rules. ;)
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I'm sorry, but I thought this was about naming cars, not bullshit politics... Article 50 will be actioned before the end of Lent, and not a minute too soon. Get over it and move on.
It won't make an iota of difference to GM not introducing a premium brand of ANY kind in this corner of the universe. And you can get over that too. :-X
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In the UK should it be sold as a Europa Brexita ? :D
But...in or out of the E.U., all of the UK and Ireland are still part of Europe. So no need to change the name a bit, if they would ever go with that name. ;)
Or rather if they would ever do it at all. ;D
That's a matter of opinion. As far as I'm concerned Britain is an island off the coast of Europe, and I'm definitely British and in no way European. ;)
Agreed, although I fear that your birth place will become part of Ireland rather than remain in the mainland. I will stop there :-X
Trust me, there is more chance of a snowball fight in hell than that happening in our lifetime. ;)